Submitted by advisor on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 12:20am.
......without society collapsing? There are no written rules here. We have depended on the civility of the users. Times change, so here are our 4 most important rules. 1) Racism: UNACCEPTABLE. Period. Stay away from it, or any hint of it. 2) Profanity: Lots of profanity is in the eye of the beholder, but if you have to ask, the answer is no. Avoid. 3) Character Assassination: Feel free to beat up any company you want, but individuals are off limits. 4) Names. This is an anonymous appliance forum. You can "out" yourself, but you may not "out" anyone else.
Beyond this, I have to admit the conversation has traveled a bit far from things directly relating to appliances. Obviously the economy is driving folks out of their comfort zone. It is difficult to discuss the problems in the appliance industry today without getting into globalization, the wealth of nations, competitiveness, innovation, industrial policy, and simple politics....which isn't so simple.
If we can add a few more recommendations (not rules) to make this a better forum. 1) Check your spelling, check your grammer, several times before publishing. 2) Keep it very, very short. 3) Check that it makes sense. 4) Use examples. Include confirmed facts when possible 5) Tie back to Appliances. This is an appliance forum after all.
A few days spent away from all the arguments is never a bad thing. I've missed this whole argument, as well as all of the past week's the media propaganda about what our country needs. I feel refreshed. I don't know what the country needs, but bringing it back to our business - moving boxes of steel and plastic - I have some ideas on what some of us need....We need to get away from idealistic jingoistic solutions like "just buy American". T-shirt and bumper sticker sloganeering in an attempt to simplify complex problems doesn't provide solutions. The American consumer that most of us seek to sell appliances to will be more and more looking for best overall value (that elusive combination of brand, features, quality, price, emotional fulfillment, etc.). We should all realize that for the foreseeable future, our target consumer will not be as free parting with their money as they were the last five years or so, will do a hell of a lot more research (internet forums, ratings, etc) and a lot more soul searching before they choose a $20,000 kitchen appliance package. The points in this contest will be awarded to the manufacturers who do the best job of solving the price/value equations at each level of our industry. That will require innovation in marketing, design, engineering, manufacturing, distribution, retailing, customer service, etc. Put that on a T-shirt. I'm hopeful that it will be the American manufacturers that will show the way in this, but there is no guarantee that is how it will eventually work out.
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Wed, 04/22/2009 - 3:54pm.
Kona..Spent time in Hawaii huh ? Well buying American does not mean just buy what they have to sell. It is companies coming to the table with new and innovative products that work and can be competitive with the good stuff out there. No free pass just to buy American. No t-shirts and lip service is hollow. We need some substantially forward thinking action which does speak louder than words. I hope they are all up to that challenge or hire the bright older folks who got some of them there in the first place. What they do now is not working in most cases dispite what the "lean" experts may say. We do agree whole heartedly.
Submitted by SteadySelling on Wed, 04/22/2009 - 5:07pm.
Mr. Stallion, alas, we agree 100%. When an American company makes a good product at a good price that meets are needs and we in our minds consider it equal in every way to the imported brand why not simply buy American and base your choice on that alone? Unfortunatly I didn't even see the T-shirt or the bumber sticker. Now, if you can tell me what is wrong with a Whirlpool, GE or Frigidaire refrigerator or washer that makes the imports better I am all ears. Same goes with the auto industry. Ford happens to have the best reliablility rating over all manufacturers right now. Maybe not 10 years ago, but guess what, that was 10 years ago. Buy American......
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Wed, 04/22/2009 - 7:22pm.
No free passes for anyone. Instead of complaining maybe they will somehow figure out that the customer is the most important asset first in an organization. They should be able to , if they put their mind to it. Too much focus is in the wrong place and the most favorite comment from a CEO is " it has to make financial sense for us to do it " Well , they need to figure it out. They have the people and skill to do just that. Good talking to you SteadySelling.
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Wed, 04/22/2009 - 4:28pm.
As a result of Advisor's censorship it appears interest is waning. Good old conversations that get a little heated are good for the soul. Even personal challenges are good. I am not hurt by anything anyone says and find most of it interesting and some quite heated. I can deal with that and Advisor I think it is all tongue in cheek even from oldjarhead , myself or others. Putting any restrictions on the site makes it like Fox news. Are you Hannity or Beck ? I've got to know !!! We all know that we have to adhere to personal respect rules, congratulations. You have become what you despise. Did Shakespeare say that or just me ?Me , I never criticize spelling. You should be ashamed of yourself.Spellliingn is what I live for.
Submitted by advisor on Thu, 04/23/2009 - 10:48am.
I have so far removed 4 -5 words as racist or profane. That's it. You guys want to spend your time talking about Fox and MSNBC.......have at it. This is read primarily by appliance professionals. Appliances are the one thing we all share. The fact that you differ on Fox or MSNBC, favorite colors or sexual orientation shouldn't be much of a surprise.
As far as I'm concerned you can not only remove the 4 or 5 words of racism and profanity, but you can remove the author of said abuses from further site access as well. While others may regard this as needless censorship, I just view it as a common courtesy to those of us who read your site for news and speculation about the brands, distributorships, dealerships and people employed or retired from those businesses with whom we share a common interest. In view of the current economic woes, I'm sure there are plenty of interesting things occuring in our industry that never quite make it to Fox or MSNBC. Keep up the good work!
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Thu, 04/23/2009 - 2:29pm.
Cohiba you are taking this a little too far and much too serious. I have yet to see anything that I would consider disrespectful to any individual. I also am giving Advisor the business on censorship. In my appliance business life anyone who knows me knows I am not a stuffed shirt and have done quite well for the organization I worked for for many years and was able to move it forward where others could not. People you know. So give me a little more credit than perhaps you would like to and understand that some of us can do well and have a sense of humor at the same time..I just don't talk a good game , I make things happen in a positive way and I am sure that most understand that.The one's who know also understand we kicked your collective rears at the time. So ..please ...lighten up and have fun while updating yourself on the appliance business. It can be fun and challenging at the same time. I also think that most on this site understand that and at the end of the day , we are respectful of each other,even if we disagree,even if the conversation gets warm. That keeps us young and sharp.
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Thu, 04/23/2009 - 11:21am.
My My, having a bad day ? The entire staff must be divided on this issue.... I think we all understand that the focus needs to be on the status of the appliance industry and what we can do to improve it. These days however the economy is playing a huge part in this process given the failed policies of too much free economic room. Thus , no focus on American jobs and a runaway banking industry that will never get back under control unless they can take our money and continue to abuse the system as they are. Then when the process repeats itself , they ask for more. Gimme,gimme,gimme. The key Wall Street word. Back to your point. We will very much attempt to keep things focused and respect the site. We know you are not a censoring device. You are , after all our the people's voice for the industry .
Submitted by SteadySelling on Wed, 04/22/2009 - 5:16pm.
Mr. Stallion, I think you got Fox wrong. They are Fair and Balanced unlike GE's cable news channels. I recall their anchor just recently referring to the "tea parties" as nothing but white supremecist gatherings made up by a bunch of racist rednecks. And yes, she did use all of those words, but I am not sure I know how to spell supremecist. Must be the first Asian, Black and Hispanic white supremecist racist redneck's gathering in history - I'm surprised such a phenomenon didn't get more media coverage. In all due respect to Hannity and Beck I don't think either one of them have ever gave a general degredation to every liberal out there who choses to express their opinion. Mr. Immelt, please put a leash on your "news" reporters. You make me not want to sell your appliance brand.
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Wed, 04/22/2009 - 7:28pm.
I watched Hannity after the election and he was taking creative freedoms to misdirect to people who look to him for accuracy on the creative content of Obama's speeches. I for one did not appreciate that. Listen to an Obama speech and then listen to how Hannity dissects the content. You will see if you listen to every word. The "tea parties" have been a result of many years (8) of overspending that were created by the party that supported the demostrations. I for one think the Repubs are out of touch at this time. Cutting spending will kill the economy. The investment should create jobs and a decent tax base to collect what was invested if done correctly.
I still read the advisor on a daily basis and will occasionally voice an opinion on this or that. However, I have chosen to stay out of the fray on most if not all of the political discussions. Having spent my entire career in the appliance industry, I prefer postings that keep me current on the ups and downs of this business. Like "Stallion", I do enjoy the banter back and forth, but have gently chastised him at least once for being a little brutal with his comments to those who disagree. However, it is an anonymous site, so none of our egos should get too badly bruised by a bit of playful criticsm. I was a little disappointed to see "Mr. Fact" resort to profanity in one recent posting. While I'm certainly no prude, I think we're all capable of expressing ourselves without the "F" word. Anyway, my opinion is that we should all spend more time on the appliance industry and solve the world's problems on other sites. (And, before you jump in on this Stallion, let me admit that I fully understand that the appliance industry is indeed impacted by world events, so no cricism along that line is necessary.)
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Fri, 04/17/2009 - 2:50pm.
Would never criticize your opinion. I agree with you.I sure wish that we can brainstorm our industry out of trouble. The tumultuous world situations surely don't help. I truly hope that this is only a deeper cycle than normal. That we could live with for awhile. We just need to build and design product here in the USA. I think website chatter sometimes comes across more aggressive than if we could speak to each other personally. That is the nature of impersonal website e-mails though , so we should take that at face value. This truly is a very good site and forum most of the time.
Submitted by oldjarhead on Fri, 04/17/2009 - 11:53am.
You can always find the "progressive" in the crowd. He cannot have a conversation without the insults and attempt to discredit any source of disagreement. Ahhh . . Nice to see Stalin’s favorite tactics so prominent in the American society. Such a shame to see such ignorance. When blinded by agenda, facts fade into the background. So . .lets sum up ALL your arguments. Bush did it. Wow . amazing insight and reflection . .gee golly. The rest of us will look back to the beginning of the progressive movement in the early 1900’s and have rational & reflective conversations about thousands of policy choices made by hundreds if not thousands of people since that time when we went off track and stopped having a free market society and decided government could bend the laws of economics and gravity. I used to consider this an indispensable board to read. It has drifted into the land of global calamity fairy tales and socialist fools who I bet could not quote 3 words from the constitution or of its creators. It is clear that you have either not read it, or simply believe it should be disregarded. It is equally as clear that you are not looking at the implementation of proposed policies attached to the global warming religion in other countries and the outcomes to date as no rational consideration of outcome is discussed on an event by event basis. In either event . . I have lost interest in the drivel that comes from this site these days. Not sure who else feels that way . .but I have gone from daily reading to a point that I am going to drop it from my bookmarks as soon as I post this. It has become a waste of my time. Oh well . .alternatives that retained credibility exist and who continue to stick to business and who have not become a platform for progressive fairy tales and politics.
Submitted by SteadySelling on Fri, 04/17/2009 - 2:03pm.
Great posting, Oldjarhead. I was the Einstein, but I believe you truly deserve the title. I am having fun with Mr. Stallion, but do find it amazing the differences in posts we get from him. On 3/11/09 he said "The mess we are in is because of constraints placed on people by the Bush regime". On 4/16/09 "Don't blame the president , put the blame on the greedy". And then "Your problem is that you cannot see or understand anyone else's point of view" from the guy that thinks the other guy is nuts for calling a price change of $147 to $40 something (sorry, got that wrong too, it was $47 which is nowhere close to $40something) a price correction. I agree that my way or the highway is bad for America but we have it shoved down our throats by the religious zealots faithfully worshipping at the "church of global warming" while burning more fuel in their private jet than i'll burn in a lifetime. Unique. Now I am someone who falls in the class of "a bitter American clinging to my guns and religion". Because I own guns, am registered "non-affiliated" because I believe both parties of government are for the most part corrupt, believe that life has value, I am suddenly a target of Homeland Security for being an extremist. Isn't that a little narrow minded and discriminating or do we call it "progressive". God Bless America! I still call terrorism what it is, not a "man made disaster". America is in trouble from the inside out because of our surrender to all things un-American. And unlike Mr. Stallion I do believe there is plenty of blame to go around, including our current administration and quite a few before it.
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 11:02pm.
My point was don't blame Bush but blame his regime. He allowed others to do the work and some of it was dirty. I believe Bush to be fairly upstanding.He listened to some evil people in his administration.Telling me oil prices went from $147 a barrell to $40 a barrell is a point of view ? It still has not brought down the price of a gallon of gas enough to make the impact we dearly need. As for weapons, I don't think anyone needs an AK 47 or AR 15. I am certain you will tell me you hunt deer with those weapons. I have laid out some good plans ,where are yours ? Or do you just want to complain about being a persecuted real American afraid of homeland security.By the way, non affiliated means you can't help to vote for the right candidates during the primaries. Tell me , what should a Dacor or Viking do to break the recession loose ? Remember $40 vs $47 is almost 20% inaccurate . Back to appliances . What strategies can be used to break it free. How do we get more jobs here ? How do we keep from exporting designs ? How do we help our hard working salespeople ?
Submitted by Bermuda Bob on Mon, 04/20/2009 - 9:25pm.
Well, the first thing we can do is realize that we lost our last best chance @ having a vibrant economy by not electing Steve Forbes and his "Flat Tax" ... I believe he would have seen this coming well ahead of time, as opposed to trying to react to what happened after it happened !!! The "Flat Tax" would have put budgetary handcuffs on the Congress and we'd all be better off for it !!! The best way for the US to keep the their businesses from leaving is to (1) grossly adjust the taxation of businesses ... why do you think there are tax havens like The Cayman's & Bermuda, or Lichtenstein & Switzerland ??? Simple ... because we have an archaic and greedy tax system !!! Another way would be to put a stop to the ridiculousness of Union Shops ... Unions had a place in our previous generations, but not today ... look @ the difference between the "loaded labour cost" for the foreign car manufacturers who moved down south into "Right to Work" states versus what's happened in Detroit !!! Why do companies ... especially those in the Appliance Industry ... go elsewhere ... because they are accountable to their shareholders who are interested in only the bottom line !!! We need to support businesses ... not chase them away !!! Giving lip-service with cute phrases like "Buy American" won't do it ... dollars and cents support for our businesses makes the most sense ... and as soon as we realize that things will change, but not until then !!!
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Tue, 04/21/2009 - 12:24am.
The tax rate being lowered for big business should be plenty of motivation to keep jobs here . What I have been saying is the companies take that money and use it to accelerate investments overseas. That is where the greed is. The flat tax rate is a terrific idea and I think at some point will become law here. The problem is the super wealthy who want that lower tax rate but still are able to use other means to keep their taxes very low. Read the reports on how much they really pay. I do believe unions have a place. Let us talk about the $83.00 per hour GM rate being thrown around.If an employee makes $30.00 per hour and get 5 weeks vacation that vacation adds. $6,000 per year.That is $2.88 per hour over the 2,080 hours worked. Insurance at a liberal $18,000 per year is $8.65 per hour. $4,200 in extra social security payments is $2.01 per hour. Retirement at $20,000 per year is $9.61 per hour.Worker's comp and other work related insurance is another $4.00 per hour. That is $27.15 per hour extra so the rate is $57.15 per hour. That is how the financial people figure that stuff out. I am confused where the extra $26.00 per hour comes from.Could it be added burden to pay the executives ? Hmmmmm. That is more management propaganda. If we make sure the factories stay productive the labor rates mean less.If an organization can increase productivity by 10% each year that allows for an equal dispersal of the added funds. That is how those things are done. I have sat and sit in those meetings. My point is that extra $26.00 per hour should not be blamed on the union employee per se. That usually is kept as a positive absorption of labor where the company picks a number , let's say $500.00 absorbed for every car produced. 100 man hours in each car ? That my friend is still only $5.00 per hour more.
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Thu, 04/23/2009 - 7:41pm.
Bermuda , I have heard a number close to $83.00 per hour since I recently worked with GM on some projects outside of appliances. The "legacy" costs are already figured into the amount given that CFO's do have what is called a rainy day fund and religiously keep it. It assists companies to "level" out some costs monthly. They have to call it something else to keep it within the GAAP accounting rules though , but trust me it is there. I do now agree with you. There is no alternative for GM or Chrysler. BK is the only way. They cannot raise enough cash to sustain paying old debt and the current debt they have, their operating margins cannot absorb that. It is a losing proposition and it is time to redefine that industry with lower costs, better management and a focus on quality and productivity. Many years before appliances I worked at a major supplier(in the hundreds of millions to GM,Ford ,etc. ) I was in the union and the focus was to not only increase pay and benefits above what the measured cost of living was but the process was to negotiate less work per individual to create jobs to increase union influence. It is coming to roost. In college labor law classes they referred to it as "featherbedding" of jobs. No one saw the coming competition from overseas. I remember the Japanese coming to our 5 million square foot plant on tours ,taking pictures and going back and using that against us.If we brought a camera to the factory they would confiscate it .Seems like we intended to help them all along . Destiny , huh ? I might add that the numbers we have talked about for Toyota at $47.00 seem to match what I was able to estimate based on the $30.00 per hour wage. If the workers at GM would lower their salary to a more reasonable $20.00 per hour that would put them smack in the middle of the competition. Then management needs to slim down. They still have seven layers where four would probably do a better job.
Submitted by Bermuda Bob on Thu, 04/23/2009 - 10:01pm.
... that the unions, in my esteemed opinion, are to blame for many of the ills of just about any industry they get their grubby hand on !!! They played an important in our parent's generation, but they are no longer relevant and I think of them in the same vein as I do government "pork " !!!
What about eliminating unions in favour of a serious Profit Sharing Plan which essentially sez that all employees share in the successes of the company as well as the failures ??? Don't you think the whole idea of employee pride would become enhanced exponentially ???
I also think that Management salaries ... right up to the top ... should be based on a percentage of the company's profit ...
... like they said in "The Right Stuff" ... " ... no bucks, no Buck Rogers !!! " I know it seems overly simplified, but sometimes good old fashioned horse logic still work best !!!
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Thu, 04/23/2009 - 11:36pm.
Given state laws as they are in most states ,unions are somewhat obsolete. Managers and executives are trained very carefully in California and in most cases we treat our non union associates better than the union employees would be treated . There is not that edginess in the relationship. Your idea of profit sharing is good if followed the way it is presented. Management salaries are way out of line when a CEO makes $20 million annually. A much lower salary incentivized by a structured bonus program that is overseen by the Board of Directors is good.Sometimes I think to help solve those public company problems the CFO's should not report to the CEO's but to a financial board of people who do not work for the company. I do know of some rather large privitately held companies that operate that way and they have no shenanigans. None that I have ever worked for though. We should run Wall Street Bob.
Submitted by SteadySelling on Fri, 04/24/2009 - 11:50am.
You guys are making excellent points. This discussion is one of the reasons I believe we as a country will emerge from this recession with a more competitive business model than we have had for years. There are things that we did that worked only because everything was rolling full speed ahead. Now those "jobs that Americans aren't willing to do" are getting fewer and fewer because the majority of Americans still want to work for what they get. It is sad to see what happens to towns like Newton, Iowa and many others as they lose their manufacturing jobs because of an unwillingness to recieve a competitive salary. I realize there may be more to the point than just "unions are bad" but we do need to start somewhere. Another thing that should go is the "prevailing wage". Why does a government contract need to pay people $40 an hour? I have avoided bidding jobs that require that wage just because it frustrates me seeing the government waste that kind of money - my guys will gladly work for half of that. Where did that idea come from? Is it to give Union companies a fair playing field with non-union?
Submitted by SteadySelling on Mon, 04/20/2009 - 8:26am.
This recession will take some time to work itself out and I do believe every company that pulls through will be better for it. No company can break the recession loose. It's going to take America as a whole to do this. Companies like Dacor, DCS and others may have the biggest struggle at no real fault of their own. Dacor may have to re-look at it's product line up and simplify it quite a bit - too many models. Viking and Sub/Wolf will probably be OK, but they will need to get a little less arrogant and not continue their policy of cancelling dealers because they don't display 12 refrigerators or dealers will find alternatives. We as dealers need to reconsider what brands we choose to promote. No offense to those who work hard to sell these products, but do we need to dedicate a big percentage of our floor to LG, Samsung, Haier, ect? I realize Whirlpool is huge and has some issues streamlining after the transition, but they are our "neighbors" and their employees will help our economy rebound. The more domestic brands we sell, the more jobs there are for American workers. All middle income Americans will have to learn to live within their means, including small business owners. You don't need a luxury foriegn car, a yacht, or a $4000 watch to be happy and if you avoid these luxuries your company will be stronger for it. Buy American, my friends. Those making those products may buy something from you. Someone living on the other side of the world probably will not - they have their own economy to deal with.
Buying (and selling) American brands is a good "first start". But, I think it is also long past time for appliance dealers to review their brand portfolios and try to focus their selling efforts. Being important to a few suppliers rather than trying to sell and display everything with a plug would align suppliers and dealers in such as way as to stimulate healthy competition between themselves as well as hold off any further foreign share erosion. How many dealers have complained about a lack of supplier support while (at the same time) crowding their floors with every product manufactured?
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Mon, 04/20/2009 - 12:32pm.
I was awake at 3:00am west coast time and listened to the CEO of GE FINALLY admit that American companies concentrate too much on service type jobs and need to get back to manufacturing based jobs to build up our middle class. What took so long Jeffery ? DCS has moved to Mexico, Dacor has strategically moved most component production off shore except for metal components. Time to really buy American. My report later this evening will surprise some of us.
Submitted by Bermuda Bob on Thu, 04/23/2009 - 10:06pm.
GE will eventually split the Appliance Division three (3) ways ...
(1) Monogram will go to MABE ...
(2) LG will take over what they already make for GE, plus maybe "Cafe" ...
(3) Haier will take over the lower end like "HotPoint" etc ...
Done deal as soon as it makes economic sense for everyone without pulling their bottom line down ... and when it's PC !!!
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 9:23pm.
Your problem is that you cannot see or understand anyone else's point of view. The fact that we playfully bash each other is lost somewhere by you. There are many progressives on both sides of the argument and until the past eight years we have been able to balance out all the politics. You fall in the category of "my way or the highway". That is bad for America. Much of what we talk about does pertain to some of our views about business . You need to find a Fox News blog where everyone speaks the same sugar and you all agree on everything. Just remember this, the past eight years of fallen or ignored monetary policy has really put us in bad shape. You would be surprised to find out I am a registered Republican and that I support most of the CIA techniques used to extract information from the suspected terrorists. That I support lower taxes for businesses as long as that money or most of it is invested back into American business interests. I believe freedom of businesses is what has made our economy what it once was. Read was. We now have too many crooked people and misinformed people whom the sharks use as a sounding board for their failed policies. A progressive is a person who can see both sides of something , discuss it and either accept it or reject it and have some respectful fun doing it. I am sure that the Brits in 1776 thought just like you.As for my comments with SteadySelling , my guess he is a great guy and I have fun with the conversation. Or perhaps you would like to see R. Lee Ermey yelling at some of us when we disgree with you or him. R. Lee is a good man and I know him personally. Guess what, we disagree on some things and stay civil with each other. How about that ?
U.S.A has put the planet in deep do, do and this is not new .The government new about the (growth of the Asian economies) that was about to Hit a long time a go. They just had stupid people governing and making money on your back and by the time everybody waked up the rich were richer and the poor got poorer. I worked in the steel business and we kept crying about (asian) steel and Russian steel coming in the North America at crazy Prices and no one moved, but the mills kept closing every where. Now just take a walk in your town and count how many American cars there are. People in North America Buy (asian) Brands and there proud to get (hurt)! Oohh I Got a good price. For the last 10 years I buy what ever is made in North America. Wake up and smell your Coffee. Sorry to be Blunt but Just listen to your new President he is basically telling you to wake up and buy American But his it too late.
Submitted by Bermuda Bob on Wed, 04/15/2009 - 8:38pm.
I have a number of reasons for the economic mess we have found ourselves in and some observations about how our illustrious government is addressing them ... 1. The sub-Prime mess was caused by a number of factors which made renegotiation of mortgages attractive ... A. The income tax legislation which removed auto and credit card loan interest as a deductable against one’s taxable income ... This opened up the door for mortgage lenders to be able to “sell” the idea of using the equity in one’s home to make major purchases, like automobiles, and by doing so they became deductable against one’s taxable income !!! Hard to resist for those less-than-informed folks !!! B. The allowance by the government of mortgage companies who were nothing more than “faces” for larger companies like Citi ... neither of whom had enough to collateralize the loans, thereby grossly increasing the risk of bad, marginal, and even reasonably good loans !!! C. The bankruptcy legislation passed by the last Bush administration which essentially removed the threat that credit card holders could pull the plug and declare bankruptcy if their debt got out of hand due to being extended too much credit from the C/C companies ... This legislation reduced the percentage of debt which could be erased in bankruptcy !!! Without any “check” of sort, the credit card companies flooded the market with unreasonably high credit limits ... think I’m wrong ??? Just look @ WaMu or some of the others who are now just a memory in the mist of high risk credit extended to people who could barely afford the minimum monthly payment !!! 2. The various and sundry theories of the Clinton and Bush II administrations which either enlarged or enhanced already questionable policies made in previous administrations ... some only instituted as stop-gap temporary “fixes” which were never allow to die a natural death as originally intended ... A. The government “laissez faire” policies to control labour unions, energy prices, and essential services !!! Once the government gave up control and oversight of labour unions we ended up with what has brought the automobile manufacturers to their knees ... and control of energy prices in favour of a “free market” economy affects each and every person with a domino affect which has now become global ... and essential services, like the airlines who are still allowed to charge you one price 21 days in advance and another 21 hours in advance of your flight !!! B. On 9-11 the government made some huge economic mistakes which we will be living with for generations !!! Bailing out the airlines was ridiculous ... it allowed US Air to merge with America West ... each a crummy airline, now one bigger crummy airline ... It allowed Delta & NorthWest to reorganize as opposed to being a takeover target by Continental ... now they’ve merged and YOU paid for it !!! It kept American Airlines afloat ... etc. etc. etc. The airlines are the most obvious but there were others !!! C. Venture Capitalists & Private Equity Firms like Cerberus who were allowed to over-invest, or over-lap invest in companies like Circuit City gave many a false sense to security but were became nothing more than a glorified “shell game” ... robbing Peter to Pay Paul, and so-on and so-on and so-on !!! 3. So, what mistakes were made when all this began to rear it’s ugly head ??? When the CountryWide debacle hit government should have “frozen” the whole mortgage industry whereby each mortgage would simply be paid @ the rate of the day without any adjustments, foreclosures, or any other action by the mortgage industry ... this until the government figured out what the heck was going on and had time to formulate a cogent plan to address it ... instead, we allowed a former GoldMan Sacks Executive to facilitate a bailout by their favoured institutions which allowed for the B of A buyout of CountryWide & Merrill, paying way too much for both !!! 4. ... and now, what is our government doing to remediate the problem ??? Simple, printing money faster than the ink can dry and using the idea of a STIMULUS to not only attempt to stimulate the economy but also quietly fund their ever-increasing number of entitlements, pet projects, and “pork” !!! The famous “Road to Nowhere” continues to be funded form good ole’ boy Senator Bobby Byrd !!! 5. ... and how will they pay for this ??? Just wait !!! Increased personal taxes (including the Death Tax, Capital Gains, etc. !!!) and an attempt to crack down on tax domiciles ... well, only the ones which are “politically correct” !!! Essentially, regardless of what you hear from the talking heads on TV, this is not over and we’re in, I fear, for a further “long-hard slog” and will see many more banks, companies, and families going bankrupt ... many never, ever recover !!!
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Wed, 04/15/2009 - 10:10pm.
Bob..You have said a mouthful. I agree with all you have declared here. Although I do think that the bankruptcy laws changing only made it more costly to file. You can still write off c/c debt. The rates of BK are rising to record rates again. I am with you. We are in for an awful long and bumpy ride. This is not our grandpa's recession. This will hurt for a while. Bob, you obviously breath in some very fresh and clear air. Keep up the good thinking.We need some real strong involvement from the owners of the manufacturing firms to help take a stand to build product here instead of hiring resume builders who move product to China and then take credit for cutting manufacturing costs all the while bragging about how smart they are.Our ten year old can figure that out. Learn to think and to improve your factories instead of the phony , easy way.
Those of us who are old enough have seen these business cycles many times before. It is very painful to see good dealers fail and it is always a surprise when the "giants" close their doors. But, Mom & Pops have come and gone and the Circuit Cities and EXPOs were preceded by White Front, FedCo, FedMart, Montgomery Ward, Incredible Universe, and countless others. As the economy turns back to prosperity, the unemployed Appliance Execs who lost their jobs in the recession will open new dealerships on street corners and new "Giants" will emerge, propped up by "meet comp" pricing from the manufacturers that didn't learn their lesson the last time. And, when the economy booms again (and it will), even the "bottom-feeders" will rake in the dough and spend their profits on boats and sports cars rather than investing in an infrastructure that might help them survive the next downturn.
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Wed, 04/15/2009 - 12:01pm.
No doubt a free market does have cycles. No doubt the free market has people that suffer unkindly from those cycles. This one is different. This one was full of greed and the process has accelerated out of control. The numbers don't lie. If we count the people out of the job market for over 12 months my take is unemployment is closer to 12 % overall. Everyone forgets to mention that statistical class of unemployed. They probably don't even teach it in school anymore.Bush for eight years said we had no problem based on what his cronies would tell him. Then all of a sudden he gets an awakening ? Come on. The difference is we have greedier people who want no accountability for what they do. Then people blame the people who could not afford the house. Blame the poor guy who gets a loan he should not have gotten ? No one told the banks to loan someone like that the money. That is what HUD is for.People who worked for me at my business got loans and were convinced that the market would continue to rise. No worse than the idiot on Wall Street who did the same,except he came away with money because he stayed within the rubber regulations he has to work with. First time we somewhat disagree Cohiba.
There really is no disagreement. I was merely stating what has been before and speculating that history will indeed repeat itself. As Yogi Berra said, "deja vu all over again." Unemployment may indeeed be at 12% (I'll take your word for it) but do you remember the misery index from the Carter years? And, this recession may have been stoked by greedy people who ducked accountability. But, there have always been greedy people and very few have ever accepted accountability. Today we have banks that can't let credit flow because their balance sheets are polluted with toxic paper. In the not so distant past, it was the S&Ls that almost tanked the economy. Regardless of who's to blame, this recession will continue for awhile and good people, including many good appliance folks, will continue to suffer. And then it will come roaring back. Speculators will buy up real estate, appliance manufacturers will beef up capacity (though not necessarily in the good ol' USA) and new appliance dealers will emerge from the ashes like the mythical Phoenix. And then, in ten or twenty years, it will tank again and there will be new villians for us to blame.
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Wed, 04/15/2009 - 4:44pm.
I think the Carter years were the worst years of any President. No leadership at all. No sense of purpose. It was bad. 21% interest . High unemployment. We certainly did recover. The only difference today is we have a more global economy and we probably will not rebound as quickly with exported jobs . The standard of living may not be as good for this next generation. I also feel a sense of greed on Wall Street the likes of which we may never have seen. Two major causes for my concern and lack of faith in a quick recovery. The tax cuts that some are asking for would be good if that savings was invested back in the USA. I believe those investments go elsewhere these days,another difference in people.
Submitted by SteadySelling on Wed, 04/15/2009 - 11:02am.
It is true the entire downturn can be blamed on two things. People buying houses they couldn't afford and the sudden rise in energy prices. The free market has corrected the cost of energy without the government getting involved. When the government got involved in the banking/mortgage laws back in the 90's they changed the rules of lending to make it "fair" because banks were "discriminating" against people with low incomes. Suddenly banks were required to lend money to people for houses they couldn't afford because of government regulation. Again, if the free market, capitalist system would have been aloud to dictate who the banks loaned money to they would have loaned it to people who could pay it back. Unfortunately only the social elite (senators) get the favors, the perks and make all the money. Check out all the tie ins to the banking industry of Senators Chris Dodd and Barney Frank. They were paid millions by the very industries they are now "rescuing". And yes, it is us, the middle class who is taking the hit.
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Wed, 04/15/2009 - 12:05pm.
What planet are you from ? Oil prices corrected ? You are nuts !!!! The banks did not create the loans, it was the unscrupulous corner market lenders who qualified people and then packaged the loans to the banks who granted did not check out the qualifications and status of each loan.I know a couple of these dime store lenders who made their money and got out clean. I do not like what they did. My friend you can blame the entire system for becoming corrupt or go back to whatever planet you came from !!!!!!!!!
Submitted by SteadySelling on Thu, 04/16/2009 - 11:19am.
It is possible that oil prices have not corrected where you came from. On planet Earth they only went from $147 a barrell to $40 something a barrell. I agree that would sound nuts to someone from another planet. Sorry for not clarifying where I came from.No question that the system is corrupt here on Earth maybe similiar to where you are from - laws are put in place by lobyists paying millions of dollars to get congressmant re-elected. Our current President had the wisdom to promise not to give a lobyist a job, but we now know that was just a typical promise from a typical polititcian. It is a cycle that probably hasn't been broken since Reagan.
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Thu, 04/16/2009 - 3:31pm.
The price of a barrell of oil is $47.00 today I believe. However that has not translated into low enough gas prices at the pump Einstein.Don't blame the president , put the blame on the greedy. You see Albert, years ago oil was treated as a non elastic economic product because of the important role oil plays in our every day life. Since speculators on Wall Street have gotten involved it has changed to an elastic process that is controlled by the phony supply and demand inventory levels they keep. A no no when less greedy were involved. What do you sell ? And you give Reagan , that leader of deregulation , the thinker of nothing , the supply side genius credit, for what ? Wow.Reagan was a puppet for Wall Street ,S&L's and anyone else who had your money in their pockets.
Submitted by SteadySelling on Thu, 04/16/2009 - 9:19pm.
So I'm not nuts after all on the oil prices correcting themselves? You are right, the gas price should be lower, but hey $2.00 beats $4.00. I believe for the most part most of us are agreeing - I just haven't heard a lot of discussion on what effect oil prices had on our economy and I truly believe it was the last straw. Sure people overspent on a lot of things. Yes, banks (or whoever it is that does mortgages since banks don't according to Mr. Stallion). Here is who I blame the mess on: The Federal Reserve, Home Buyers, Congress, Real Estate Agents, The Clinton Administration, Mortgage brokers, Alan Greenspan, Wall Street, The Bush administraiton, trippling of the cost of gas and oil (costing most people hundreds extra each month) and our delusion that the economy would always grow. Basically what Bermuda Bob already covered. I borrowed some of this from factcheck.org. Please note: I didn't mention President Obama. I did blame him earlier for breaking respectful and lofty camaign promises of not having lobyists in his cabinet which I stand behind. I also stand behind Reagan. Whatever deregulation you want to blame on him look what he did to our economy after Carter. I am too young to remeber those years. What good is regulation anyway when you have people determined to commit criminal acts? I would prefer we follow Reagan's lead instead of Karl Marx's lead of "spreading the wealth around". I have yet to see any economy that has thrived under that style of government. Relax, Stallion, I think we agree on a few things. Don't have a heart attack before we get our beloved Government Heath Care (it'll have to work as good as Social Security wouldn't you think?) By the way, I sell appliances.
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Sun, 04/19/2009 - 9:26pm.
The cost of a barrell of oil has gone down for sure. They nearly helped bring the country to a standstill at $4.00 plus a gallon though. That still leaves quite a bit of money spread around.Oil is a basic product in quite a few of our everyday lives. Plastic as a material and the power to produce steel and other high volume users. Trucking ,wait ..get with it SS you need to study this some.No sense in me telling you about it.Most of the banks maintained standard types of loans which they approved were fairly safe . It was the corner lenders who used private money to fund loans then they packaged loans as a whole and sold them to the banks. I doubt anyone got a stated income loan from a standard bank like B of A or Wells Fargo ,etc. Especially when they would state they made $200,000 as a construction laborer.Reagan deregulated and we had the Savings and Loan fiasco. Remember the guy named Millikan who took people's money like Madoff did ? It maybe did not affect you but I know plenty of retired people at the time whose pensions went from $1,200 per month to less than $400.00 per month. That's ok Reagan got a $10 million gift home from somebody though.I don't believe in Marxism either but we do need retsraint, if you are in your 30-40's it is your generation in Wall Street whose is the newest group of sharks .
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Tue, 04/14/2009 - 10:14pm.
Yes , the dealers are innocent victims of this breakdown of our society and economy. We have a society that encourages aggressive methods to do questionable things yet take no responsibility for those actions. We then have economic sharks who sit on Madison Ave. figuring how to take your grandmother's pension and call it a free economic system that is good for all. No one twisted your grandma's arm. If that fails get money from Uncle Sam because we are the engine of the beast and that is good for America. Unwittingly the only people that have much honor left are the poor people in the middle who think capitalism was ordained by God. How wrong we are ! Then we leave the honest working class dealer salesperson on the street and call it a downturn. We leave the car salesman hoping for a customer and we blame GM . All the while marking time for the market to improve as the sharks take the stocks for next to nothing from the average Joe and turn it into a gold's nest for themselves. Isn't our economy grand ? Yes , we have a down turn , but the rich and abusive love it.Then we have the audacity to single out people who take aid as lazy and robbing the system. Better double check who is robbing who. When you see a dealer on the street with his hand out , help him.
Submitted by Bermuda Bob on Thu, 04/16/2009 - 12:14am.
Since the beginning of the year we have seen an ever increasing problem of having enough product to meet the needs of the people who we are lucky enough to walk into the showroom !!! It seems that they are stocking the "Big Box" warehouses before ours !!! I can't tell you how many pieces I've lost because we simply had no concrete idea of when they would be in the warehouse to quote the customer and they need to replace a broken down appliances PRONTO !!! ... and that's a crying shame, because the Dealers are the heart and soul of the business !!!
Can a man take a short vacation.....
......without society collapsing?
There are no written rules here. We have depended on the civility of the users. Times change, so here are our 4 most important rules.
1) Racism: UNACCEPTABLE. Period. Stay away from it, or any hint of it.
2) Profanity: Lots of profanity is in the eye of the beholder, but if you have to ask, the answer is no. Avoid.
3) Character Assassination: Feel free to beat up any company you want, but individuals are off limits.
4) Names. This is an anonymous appliance forum. You can "out" yourself, but you may not "out" anyone else.
Beyond this, I have to admit the conversation has traveled a bit far from things directly relating to appliances. Obviously the economy is driving folks out of their comfort zone. It is difficult to discuss the problems in the appliance industry today without getting into globalization, the wealth of nations, competitiveness, innovation, industrial policy, and simple politics....which isn't so simple.
If we can add a few more recommendations (not rules) to make this a better forum.
1) Check your spelling, check your grammer, several times before publishing.
2) Keep it very, very short.
3) Check that it makes sense.
4) Use examples. Include confirmed facts when possible
5) Tie back to Appliances. This is an appliance forum after all.
open eyes
A few days spent away from all the arguments is never a bad thing. I've missed this whole argument, as well as all of the past week's the media propaganda about what our country needs. I feel refreshed. I don't know what the country needs, but bringing it back to our business - moving boxes of steel and plastic - I have some ideas on what some of us need....We need to get away from idealistic jingoistic solutions like "just buy American". T-shirt and bumper sticker sloganeering in an attempt to simplify complex problems doesn't provide solutions. The American consumer that most of us seek to sell appliances to will be more and more looking for best overall value (that elusive combination of brand, features, quality, price, emotional fulfillment, etc.). We should all realize that for the foreseeable future, our target consumer will not be as free parting with their money as they were the last five years or so, will do a hell of a lot more research (internet forums, ratings, etc) and a lot more soul searching before they choose a $20,000 kitchen appliance package. The points in this contest will be awarded to the manufacturers who do the best job of solving the price/value equations at each level of our industry. That will require innovation in marketing, design, engineering, manufacturing, distribution, retailing, customer service, etc. Put that on a T-shirt. I'm hopeful that it will be the American manufacturers that will show the way in this, but there is no guarantee that is how it will eventually work out.
"time in Hawaii"
Stallion....Hawaii is a wonderful place to visit. Kona is my Labrador Retriever
Favorite Dog.
Quite a peaceful name for such a big dog. Nice one but big. Yes, I like to detox business a week at a time in Hawaii.
Buying American
Kona..Spent time in Hawaii huh ? Well buying American does not mean just buy what they have to sell. It is companies coming to the table with new and innovative products that work and can be competitive with the good stuff out there. No free pass just to buy American. No t-shirts and lip service is hollow. We need some substantially forward thinking action which does speak louder than words. I hope they are all up to that challenge or hire the bright older folks who got some of them there in the first place. What they do now is not working in most cases dispite what the "lean" experts may say. We do agree whole heartedly.
Breaking News! SteadySelling Agrees with Appliance Stallion
Mr. Stallion, alas, we agree 100%. When an American company makes a good product at a good price that meets are needs and we in our minds consider it equal in every way to the imported brand why not simply buy American and base your choice on that alone? Unfortunatly I didn't even see the T-shirt or the bumber sticker. Now, if you can tell me what is wrong with a Whirlpool, GE or Frigidaire refrigerator or washer that makes the imports better I am all ears. Same goes with the auto industry. Ford happens to have the best reliablility rating over all manufacturers right now. Maybe not 10 years ago, but guess what, that was 10 years ago. Buy American......
I Need Oxygen !!!
No free passes for anyone. Instead of complaining maybe they will somehow figure out that the customer is the most important asset first in an organization. They should be able to , if they put their mind to it. Too much focus is in the wrong place and the most favorite comment from a CEO is " it has to make financial sense for us to do it " Well , they need to figure it out. They have the people and skill to do just that. Good talking to you SteadySelling.
Well There You Go
As a result of Advisor's censorship it appears interest is waning. Good old conversations that get a little heated are good for the soul. Even personal challenges are good. I am not hurt by anything anyone says and find most of it interesting and some quite heated. I can deal with that and Advisor I think it is all tongue in cheek even from oldjarhead , myself or others. Putting any restrictions on the site makes it like Fox news. Are you Hannity or Beck ? I've got to know !!! We all know that we have to adhere to personal respect rules, congratulations. You have become what you despise. Did Shakespeare say that or just me ?Me , I never criticize spelling. You should be ashamed of yourself.Spellliingn is what I live for.
Censorship?
I have so far removed 4 -5 words as racist or profane. That's it. You guys want to spend your time talking about Fox and MSNBC.......have at it.
This is read primarily by appliance professionals. Appliances are the one thing we all share. The fact that you differ on Fox or MSNBC, favorite colors or sexual orientation shouldn't be much of a surprise.
Thanks for the "censorship"
As far as I'm concerned you can not only remove the 4 or 5 words of racism and profanity, but you can remove the author of said abuses from further site access as well. While others may regard this as needless censorship, I just view it as a common courtesy to those of us who read your site for news and speculation about the brands, distributorships, dealerships and people employed or retired from those businesses with whom we share a common interest. In view of the current economic woes, I'm sure there are plenty of interesting things occuring in our industry that never quite make it to Fox or MSNBC. Keep up the good work!
Cohiba
Cohiba you are taking this a little too far and much too serious. I have yet to see anything that I would consider disrespectful to any individual. I also am giving Advisor the business on censorship. In my appliance business life anyone who knows me knows I am not a stuffed shirt and have done quite well for the organization I worked for for many years and was able to move it forward where others could not. People you know. So give me a little more credit than perhaps you would like to and understand that some of us can do well and have a sense of humor at the same time..I just don't talk a good game , I make things happen in a positive way and I am sure that most understand that.The one's who know also understand we kicked your collective rears at the time. So ..please ...lighten up and have fun while updating yourself on the appliance business. It can be fun and challenging at the same time. I also think that most on this site understand that and at the end of the day , we are respectful of each other,even if we disagree,even if the conversation gets warm. That keeps us young and sharp.
Touchy..Touchy.
My My, having a bad day ? The entire staff must be divided on this issue.... I think we all understand that the focus needs to be on the status of the appliance industry and what we can do to improve it. These days however the economy is playing a huge part in this process given the failed policies of too much free economic room. Thus , no focus on American jobs and a runaway banking industry that will never get back under control unless they can take our money and continue to abuse the system as they are. Then when the process repeats itself , they ask for more. Gimme,gimme,gimme. The key Wall Street word. Back to your point. We will very much attempt to keep things focused and respect the site. We know you are not a censoring device. You are , after all our the people's voice for the industry .
Breaking News! SteadySelling Disagrees with ApplianceStallion
Mr. Stallion, I think you got Fox wrong. They are Fair and Balanced unlike GE's cable news channels. I recall their anchor just recently referring to the "tea parties" as nothing but white supremecist gatherings made up by a bunch of racist rednecks. And yes, she did use all of those words, but I am not sure I know how to spell supremecist. Must be the first Asian, Black and Hispanic white supremecist racist redneck's gathering in history - I'm surprised such a phenomenon didn't get more media coverage. In all due respect to Hannity and Beck I don't think either one of them have ever gave a general degredation to every liberal out there who choses to express their opinion. Mr. Immelt, please put a leash on your "news" reporters. You make me not want to sell your appliance brand.
Fox the Evil Empire
I watched Hannity after the election and he was taking creative freedoms to misdirect to people who look to him for accuracy on the creative content of Obama's speeches. I for one did not appreciate that. Listen to an Obama speech and then listen to how Hannity dissects the content. You will see if you listen to every word. The "tea parties" have been a result of many years (8) of overspending that were created by the party that supported the demostrations. I for one think the Repubs are out of touch at this time. Cutting spending will kill the economy. The investment should create jobs and a decent tax base to collect what was invested if done correctly.
Very Good
As usual , the editors are on the button. No you may not take a vacation. ANNNNDDDD How about those Lakers ?
Well said
Thank you for these rules and recommendations. I think it will make this site much more enjoyable and informative for all.
Back to appliances
I still read the advisor on a daily basis and will occasionally voice an opinion on this or that. However, I have chosen to stay out of the fray on most if not all of the political discussions. Having spent my entire career in the appliance industry, I prefer postings that keep me current on the ups and downs of this business. Like "Stallion", I do enjoy the banter back and forth, but have gently chastised him at least once for being a little brutal with his comments to those who disagree. However, it is an anonymous site, so none of our egos should get too badly bruised by a bit of playful criticsm. I was a little disappointed to see "Mr. Fact" resort to profanity in one recent posting. While I'm certainly no prude, I think we're all capable of expressing ourselves without the "F" word. Anyway, my opinion is that we should all spend more time on the appliance industry and solve the world's problems on other sites. (And, before you jump in on this Stallion, let me admit that I fully understand that the appliance industry is indeed impacted by world events, so no cricism along that line is necessary.)
Great
Would never criticize your opinion. I agree with you.I sure wish that we can brainstorm our industry out of trouble. The tumultuous world situations surely don't help. I truly hope that this is only a deeper cycle than normal. That we could live with for awhile. We just need to build and design product here in the USA. I think website chatter sometimes comes across more aggressive than if we could speak to each other personally. That is the nature of impersonal website e-mails though , so we should take that at face value. This truly is a very good site and forum most of the time.
You can always find the
You can always find the "progressive" in the crowd. He cannot have a conversation without the insults and attempt to discredit any source of disagreement. Ahhh . . Nice to see Stalin’s favorite tactics so prominent in the American society. Such a shame to see such ignorance. When blinded by agenda, facts fade into the background. So . .lets sum up ALL your arguments. Bush did it. Wow . amazing insight and reflection . .gee golly. The rest of us will look back to the beginning of the progressive movement in the early 1900’s and have rational & reflective conversations about thousands of policy choices made by hundreds if not thousands of people since that time when we went off track and stopped having a free market society and decided government could bend the laws of economics and gravity. I used to consider this an indispensable board to read. It has drifted into the land of global calamity fairy tales and socialist fools who I bet could not quote 3 words from the constitution or of its creators. It is clear that you have either not read it, or simply believe it should be disregarded. It is equally as clear that you are not looking at the implementation of proposed policies attached to the global warming religion in other countries and the outcomes to date as no rational consideration of outcome is discussed on an event by event basis. In either event . . I have lost interest in the drivel that comes from this site these days. Not sure who else feels that way . .but I have gone from daily reading to a point that I am going to drop it from my bookmarks as soon as I post this. It has become a waste of my time. Oh well . .alternatives that retained credibility exist and who continue to stick to business and who have not become a platform for progressive fairy tales and politics.
Oldjarhead, your the true Einstein
Great posting, Oldjarhead. I was the Einstein, but I believe you truly deserve the title. I am having fun with Mr. Stallion, but do find it amazing the differences in posts we get from him. On 3/11/09 he said "The mess we are in is because of constraints placed on people by the Bush regime". On 4/16/09 "Don't blame the president , put the blame on the greedy". And then "Your problem is that you cannot see or understand anyone else's point of view" from the guy that thinks the other guy is nuts for calling a price change of $147 to $40 something (sorry, got that wrong too, it was $47 which is nowhere close to $40something) a price correction. I agree that my way or the highway is bad for America but we have it shoved down our throats by the religious zealots faithfully worshipping at the "church of global warming" while burning more fuel in their private jet than i'll burn in a lifetime. Unique. Now I am someone who falls in the class of "a bitter American clinging to my guns and religion". Because I own guns, am registered "non-affiliated" because I believe both parties of government are for the most part corrupt, believe that life has value, I am suddenly a target of Homeland Security for being an extremist. Isn't that a little narrow minded and discriminating or do we call it "progressive". God Bless America! I still call terrorism what it is, not a "man made disaster". America is in trouble from the inside out because of our surrender to all things un-American. And unlike Mr. Stallion I do believe there is plenty of blame to go around, including our current administration and quite a few before it.
Hey SteadySelling .
My point was don't blame Bush but blame his regime. He allowed others to do the work and some of it was dirty. I believe Bush to be fairly upstanding.He listened to some evil people in his administration.Telling me oil prices went from $147 a barrell to $40 a barrell is a point of view ? It still has not brought down the price of a gallon of gas enough to make the impact we dearly need. As for weapons, I don't think anyone needs an AK 47 or AR 15. I am certain you will tell me you hunt deer with those weapons. I have laid out some good plans ,where are yours ? Or do you just want to complain about being a persecuted real American afraid of homeland security.By the way, non affiliated means you can't help to vote for the right candidates during the primaries. Tell me , what should a Dacor or Viking do to break the recession loose ? Remember $40 vs $47 is almost 20% inaccurate . Back to appliances . What strategies can be used to break it free. How do we get more jobs here ? How do we keep from exporting designs ? How do we help our hard working salespeople ?
Keepin' it Here !!!
Well, the first thing we can do is realize that we lost our last best chance @ having a vibrant economy by not electing Steve Forbes and his "Flat Tax" ... I believe he would have seen this coming well ahead of time, as opposed to trying to react to what happened after it happened !!! The "Flat Tax" would have put budgetary handcuffs on the Congress and we'd all be better off for it !!! The best way for the US to keep the their businesses from leaving is to (1) grossly adjust the taxation of businesses ... why do you think there are tax havens like The Cayman's & Bermuda, or Lichtenstein & Switzerland ??? Simple ... because we have an archaic and greedy tax system !!! Another way would be to put a stop to the ridiculousness of Union Shops ... Unions had a place in our previous generations, but not today ... look @ the difference between the "loaded labour cost" for the foreign car manufacturers who moved down south into "Right to Work" states versus what's happened in Detroit !!! Why do companies ... especially those in the Appliance Industry ... go elsewhere ... because they are accountable to their shareholders who are interested in only the bottom line !!! We need to support businesses ... not chase them away !!! Giving lip-service with cute phrases like "Buy American" won't do it ... dollars and cents support for our businesses makes the most sense ... and as soon as we realize that things will change, but not until then !!!
Bermuda Bob
The tax rate being lowered for big business should be plenty of motivation to keep jobs here . What I have been saying is the companies take that money and use it to accelerate investments overseas. That is where the greed is. The flat tax rate is a terrific idea and I think at some point will become law here. The problem is the super wealthy who want that lower tax rate but still are able to use other means to keep their taxes very low. Read the reports on how much they really pay. I do believe unions have a place. Let us talk about the $83.00 per hour GM rate being thrown around.If an employee makes $30.00 per hour and get 5 weeks vacation that vacation adds. $6,000 per year.That is $2.88 per hour over the 2,080 hours worked. Insurance at a liberal $18,000 per year is $8.65 per hour. $4,200 in extra social security payments is $2.01 per hour. Retirement at $20,000 per year is $9.61 per hour.Worker's comp and other work related insurance is another $4.00 per hour. That is $27.15 per hour extra so the rate is $57.15 per hour. That is how the financial people figure that stuff out. I am confused where the extra $26.00 per hour comes from.Could it be added burden to pay the executives ? Hmmmmm. That is more management propaganda. If we make sure the factories stay productive the labor rates mean less.If an organization can increase productivity by 10% each year that allows for an equal dispersal of the added funds. That is how those things are done. I have sat and sit in those meetings. My point is that extra $26.00 per hour should not be blamed on the union employee per se. That usually is kept as a positive absorption of labor where the company picks a number , let's say $500.00 absorbed for every car produced. 100 man hours in each car ? That my friend is still only $5.00 per hour more.
"Legacy Costs"
Stallion, I have not heard nor seen that $83 per hour ... I have seen $74+ for Detroit versus $47+ for the "Right-to-Work" states ...
One of the things often quoted are the "Legacy Costs" for retired, bought-out, and/or disabled former employees ...
One way or the other, bankruptcy is the only way to shake the unions loose ... unfortunate as it may seem !!!
I know.
Bermuda , I have heard a number close to $83.00 per hour since I recently worked with GM on some projects outside of appliances. The "legacy" costs are already figured into the amount given that CFO's do have what is called a rainy day fund and religiously keep it. It assists companies to "level" out some costs monthly. They have to call it something else to keep it within the GAAP accounting rules though , but trust me it is there. I do now agree with you. There is no alternative for GM or Chrysler. BK is the only way. They cannot raise enough cash to sustain paying old debt and the current debt they have, their operating margins cannot absorb that. It is a losing proposition and it is time to redefine that industry with lower costs, better management and a focus on quality and productivity. Many years before appliances I worked at a major supplier(in the hundreds of millions to GM,Ford ,etc. ) I was in the union and the focus was to not only increase pay and benefits above what the measured cost of living was but the process was to negotiate less work per individual to create jobs to increase union influence. It is coming to roost. In college labor law classes they referred to it as "featherbedding" of jobs. No one saw the coming competition from overseas. I remember the Japanese coming to our 5 million square foot plant on tours ,taking pictures and going back and using that against us.If we brought a camera to the factory they would confiscate it .Seems like we intended to help them all along . Destiny , huh ? I might add that the numbers we have talked about for Toyota at $47.00 seem to match what I was able to estimate based on the $30.00 per hour wage. If the workers at GM would lower their salary to a more reasonable $20.00 per hour that would put them smack in the middle of the competition. Then management needs to slim down. They still have seven layers where four would probably do a better job.
The point remains ...
... that the unions, in my esteemed opinion, are to blame for many of the ills of just about any industry they get their grubby hand on !!! They played an important in our parent's generation, but they are no longer relevant and I think of them in the same vein as I do government "pork " !!!
What about eliminating unions in favour of a serious Profit Sharing Plan which essentially sez that all employees share in the successes of the company as well as the failures ??? Don't you think the whole idea of employee pride would become enhanced exponentially ???
I also think that Management salaries ... right up to the top ... should be based on a percentage of the company's profit ...
... like they said in "The Right Stuff" ... " ... no bucks, no Buck Rogers !!! " I know it seems overly simplified, but sometimes good old fashioned horse logic still work best !!!
The Point Remains , Part 2
Given state laws as they are in most states ,unions are somewhat obsolete. Managers and executives are trained very carefully in California and in most cases we treat our non union associates better than the union employees would be treated . There is not that edginess in the relationship. Your idea of profit sharing is good if followed the way it is presented. Management salaries are way out of line when a CEO makes $20 million annually. A much lower salary incentivized by a structured bonus program that is overseen by the Board of Directors is good.Sometimes I think to help solve those public company problems the CFO's should not report to the CEO's but to a financial board of people who do not work for the company. I do know of some rather large privitately held companies that operate that way and they have no shenanigans. None that I have ever worked for though. We should run Wall Street Bob.
Great Points....
You guys are making excellent points. This discussion is one of the reasons I believe we as a country will emerge from this recession with a more competitive business model than we have had for years. There are things that we did that worked only because everything was rolling full speed ahead. Now those "jobs that Americans aren't willing to do" are getting fewer and fewer because the majority of Americans still want to work for what they get. It is sad to see what happens to towns like Newton, Iowa and many others as they lose their manufacturing jobs because of an unwillingness to recieve a competitive salary. I realize there may be more to the point than just "unions are bad" but we do need to start somewhere. Another thing that should go is the "prevailing wage". Why does a government contract need to pay people $40 an hour? I have avoided bidding jobs that require that wage just because it frustrates me seeing the government waste that kind of money - my guys will gladly work for half of that. Where did that idea come from? Is it to give Union companies a fair playing field with non-union?
Buy American...........
This recession will take some time to work itself out and I do believe every company that pulls through will be better for it. No company can break the recession loose. It's going to take America as a whole to do this. Companies like Dacor, DCS and others may have the biggest struggle at no real fault of their own. Dacor may have to re-look at it's product line up and simplify it quite a bit - too many models. Viking and Sub/Wolf will probably be OK, but they will need to get a little less arrogant and not continue their policy of cancelling dealers because they don't display 12 refrigerators or dealers will find alternatives. We as dealers need to reconsider what brands we choose to promote. No offense to those who work hard to sell these products, but do we need to dedicate a big percentage of our floor to LG, Samsung, Haier, ect? I realize Whirlpool is huge and has some issues streamlining after the transition, but they are our "neighbors" and their employees will help our economy rebound. The more domestic brands we sell, the more jobs there are for American workers. All middle income Americans will have to learn to live within their means, including small business owners. You don't need a luxury foriegn car, a yacht, or a $4000 watch to be happy and if you avoid these luxuries your company will be stronger for it. Buy American, my friends. Those making those products may buy something from you. Someone living on the other side of the world probably will not - they have their own economy to deal with.
A good first start
Buying (and selling) American brands is a good "first start". But, I think it is also long past time for appliance dealers to review their brand portfolios and try to focus their selling efforts. Being important to a few suppliers rather than trying to sell and display everything with a plug would align suppliers and dealers in such as way as to stimulate healthy competition between themselves as well as hold off any further foreign share erosion. How many dealers have complained about a lack of supplier support while (at the same time) crowding their floors with every product manufactured?
Jeffery Immelt Speaks. GE's CEO
I was awake at 3:00am west coast time and listened to the CEO of GE FINALLY admit that American companies concentrate too much on service type jobs and need to get back to manufacturing based jobs to build up our middle class. What took so long Jeffery ? DCS has moved to Mexico, Dacor has strategically moved most component production off shore except for metal components. Time to really buy American. My report later this evening will surprise some of us.
My take on GE ...
GE will eventually split the Appliance Division three (3) ways ...
(1) Monogram will go to MABE ...
(2) LG will take over what they already make for GE, plus maybe "Cafe" ...
(3) Haier will take over the lower end like "HotPoint" etc ...
Done deal as soon as it makes economic sense for everyone without pulling their bottom line down ... and when it's PC !!!
GE
GE has made some rumblings to jump full bore back into their manufacturing companies so this theory will have to play out.
Oldjarhead
Your problem is that you cannot see or understand anyone else's point of view. The fact that we playfully bash each other is lost somewhere by you. There are many progressives on both sides of the argument and until the past eight years we have been able to balance out all the politics. You fall in the category of "my way or the highway". That is bad for America. Much of what we talk about does pertain to some of our views about business . You need to find a Fox News blog where everyone speaks the same sugar and you all agree on everything. Just remember this, the past eight years of fallen or ignored monetary policy has really put us in bad shape. You would be surprised to find out I am a registered Republican and that I support most of the CIA techniques used to extract information from the suspected terrorists. That I support lower taxes for businesses as long as that money or most of it is invested back into American business interests. I believe freedom of businesses is what has made our economy what it once was. Read was. We now have too many crooked people and misinformed people whom the sharks use as a sounding board for their failed policies. A progressive is a person who can see both sides of something , discuss it and either accept it or reject it and have some respectful fun doing it. I am sure that the Brits in 1776 thought just like you.As for my comments with SteadySelling , my guess he is a great guy and I have fun with the conversation. Or perhaps you would like to see R. Lee Ermey yelling at some of us when we disgree with you or him. R. Lee is a good man and I know him personally. Guess what, we disagree on some things and stay civil with each other. How about that ?
U.S of the A ???
U.S.A has put the planet in deep do, do and this is not new .The government new about the (growth of the Asian economies) that was about to Hit a long time a go. They just had stupid people governing and making money on your back and by the time everybody waked up the rich were richer and the poor got poorer. I worked in the steel business and we kept crying about (asian) steel and Russian steel coming in the North America at crazy Prices and no one moved, but the mills kept closing every where. Now just take a walk in your town and count how many American cars there are. People in North America Buy (asian) Brands and there proud to get (hurt)! Oohh I Got a good price. For the last 10 years I buy what ever is made in North America. Wake up and smell your Coffee. Sorry to be Blunt but Just listen to your new President he is basically telling you to wake up and buy American But his it too late.
Mr. Fact
You are right !!! Well spoken!!!! We are sometimes are own worst enemy.
My Turn ...
I have a number of reasons for the economic mess we have found ourselves in and some observations about how our illustrious government is addressing them ... 1. The sub-Prime mess was caused by a number of factors which made renegotiation of mortgages attractive ... A. The income tax legislation which removed auto and credit card loan interest as a deductable against one’s taxable income ... This opened up the door for mortgage lenders to be able to “sell” the idea of using the equity in one’s home to make major purchases, like automobiles, and by doing so they became deductable against one’s taxable income !!! Hard to resist for those less-than-informed folks !!! B. The allowance by the government of mortgage companies who were nothing more than “faces” for larger companies like Citi ... neither of whom had enough to collateralize the loans, thereby grossly increasing the risk of bad, marginal, and even reasonably good loans !!! C. The bankruptcy legislation passed by the last Bush administration which essentially removed the threat that credit card holders could pull the plug and declare bankruptcy if their debt got out of hand due to being extended too much credit from the C/C companies ... This legislation reduced the percentage of debt which could be erased in bankruptcy !!! Without any “check” of sort, the credit card companies flooded the market with unreasonably high credit limits ... think I’m wrong ??? Just look @ WaMu or some of the others who are now just a memory in the mist of high risk credit extended to people who could barely afford the minimum monthly payment !!! 2. The various and sundry theories of the Clinton and Bush II administrations which either enlarged or enhanced already questionable policies made in previous administrations ... some only instituted as stop-gap temporary “fixes” which were never allow to die a natural death as originally intended ... A. The government “laissez faire” policies to control labour unions, energy prices, and essential services !!! Once the government gave up control and oversight of labour unions we ended up with what has brought the automobile manufacturers to their knees ... and control of energy prices in favour of a “free market” economy affects each and every person with a domino affect which has now become global ... and essential services, like the airlines who are still allowed to charge you one price 21 days in advance and another 21 hours in advance of your flight !!! B. On 9-11 the government made some huge economic mistakes which we will be living with for generations !!! Bailing out the airlines was ridiculous ... it allowed US Air to merge with America West ... each a crummy airline, now one bigger crummy airline ... It allowed Delta & NorthWest to reorganize as opposed to being a takeover target by Continental ... now they’ve merged and YOU paid for it !!! It kept American Airlines afloat ... etc. etc. etc. The airlines are the most obvious but there were others !!! C. Venture Capitalists & Private Equity Firms like Cerberus who were allowed to over-invest, or over-lap invest in companies like Circuit City gave many a false sense to security but were became nothing more than a glorified “shell game” ... robbing Peter to Pay Paul, and so-on and so-on and so-on !!! 3. So, what mistakes were made when all this began to rear it’s ugly head ??? When the CountryWide debacle hit government should have “frozen” the whole mortgage industry whereby each mortgage would simply be paid @ the rate of the day without any adjustments, foreclosures, or any other action by the mortgage industry ... this until the government figured out what the heck was going on and had time to formulate a cogent plan to address it ... instead, we allowed a former GoldMan Sacks Executive to facilitate a bailout by their favoured institutions which allowed for the B of A buyout of CountryWide & Merrill, paying way too much for both !!! 4. ... and now, what is our government doing to remediate the problem ??? Simple, printing money faster than the ink can dry and using the idea of a STIMULUS to not only attempt to stimulate the economy but also quietly fund their ever-increasing number of entitlements, pet projects, and “pork” !!! The famous “Road to Nowhere” continues to be funded form good ole’ boy Senator Bobby Byrd !!! 5. ... and how will they pay for this ??? Just wait !!! Increased personal taxes (including the Death Tax, Capital Gains, etc. !!!) and an attempt to crack down on tax domiciles ... well, only the ones which are “politically correct” !!! Essentially, regardless of what you hear from the talking heads on TV, this is not over and we’re in, I fear, for a further “long-hard slog” and will see many more banks, companies, and families going bankrupt ... many never, ever recover !!!
Wowee !!
Bob..You have said a mouthful. I agree with all you have declared here. Although I do think that the bankruptcy laws changing only made it more costly to file. You can still write off c/c debt. The rates of BK are rising to record rates again. I am with you. We are in for an awful long and bumpy ride. This is not our grandpa's recession. This will hurt for a while. Bob, you obviously breath in some very fresh and clear air. Keep up the good thinking.We need some real strong involvement from the owners of the manufacturing firms to help take a stand to build product here instead of hiring resume builders who move product to China and then take credit for cutting manufacturing costs all the while bragging about how smart they are.Our ten year old can figure that out. Learn to think and to improve your factories instead of the phony , easy way.
Cycles
Those of us who are old enough have seen these business cycles many times before. It is very painful to see good dealers fail and it is always a surprise when the "giants" close their doors. But, Mom & Pops have come and gone and the Circuit Cities and EXPOs were preceded by White Front, FedCo, FedMart, Montgomery Ward, Incredible Universe, and countless others. As the economy turns back to prosperity, the unemployed Appliance Execs who lost their jobs in the recession will open new dealerships on street corners and new "Giants" will emerge, propped up by "meet comp" pricing from the manufacturers that didn't learn their lesson the last time. And, when the economy booms again (and it will), even the "bottom-feeders" will rake in the dough and spend their profits on boats and sports cars rather than investing in an infrastructure that might help them survive the next downturn.
Cycles Part 2
No doubt a free market does have cycles. No doubt the free market has people that suffer unkindly from those cycles. This one is different. This one was full of greed and the process has accelerated out of control. The numbers don't lie. If we count the people out of the job market for over 12 months my take is unemployment is closer to 12 % overall. Everyone forgets to mention that statistical class of unemployed. They probably don't even teach it in school anymore.Bush for eight years said we had no problem based on what his cronies would tell him. Then all of a sudden he gets an awakening ? Come on. The difference is we have greedier people who want no accountability for what they do. Then people blame the people who could not afford the house. Blame the poor guy who gets a loan he should not have gotten ? No one told the banks to loan someone like that the money. That is what HUD is for.People who worked for me at my business got loans and were convinced that the market would continue to rise. No worse than the idiot on Wall Street who did the same,except he came away with money because he stayed within the rubber regulations he has to work with. First time we somewhat disagree Cohiba.
Part 3
There really is no disagreement. I was merely stating what has been before and speculating that history will indeed repeat itself. As Yogi Berra said, "deja vu all over again." Unemployment may indeeed be at 12% (I'll take your word for it) but do you remember the misery index from the Carter years? And, this recession may have been stoked by greedy people who ducked accountability. But, there have always been greedy people and very few have ever accepted accountability. Today we have banks that can't let credit flow because their balance sheets are polluted with toxic paper. In the not so distant past, it was the S&Ls that almost tanked the economy. Regardless of who's to blame, this recession will continue for awhile and good people, including many good appliance folks, will continue to suffer. And then it will come roaring back. Speculators will buy up real estate, appliance manufacturers will beef up capacity (though not necessarily in the good ol' USA) and new appliance dealers will emerge from the ashes like the mythical Phoenix. And then, in ten or twenty years, it will tank again and there will be new villians for us to blame.
Carter... Yuk.
I think the Carter years were the worst years of any President. No leadership at all. No sense of purpose. It was bad. 21% interest . High unemployment. We certainly did recover. The only difference today is we have a more global economy and we probably will not rebound as quickly with exported jobs . The standard of living may not be as good for this next generation. I also feel a sense of greed on Wall Street the likes of which we may never have seen. Two major causes for my concern and lack of faith in a quick recovery. The tax cuts that some are asking for would be good if that savings was invested back in the USA. I believe those investments go elsewhere these days,another difference in people.
It is true the entire
It is true the entire downturn can be blamed on two things. People buying houses they couldn't afford and the sudden rise in energy prices. The free market has corrected the cost of energy without the government getting involved. When the government got involved in the banking/mortgage laws back in the 90's they changed the rules of lending to make it "fair" because banks were "discriminating" against people with low incomes. Suddenly banks were required to lend money to people for houses they couldn't afford because of government regulation. Again, if the free market, capitalist system would have been aloud to dictate who the banks loaned money to they would have loaned it to people who could pay it back. Unfortunately only the social elite (senators) get the favors, the perks and make all the money. Check out all the tie ins to the banking industry of Senators Chris Dodd and Barney Frank. They were paid millions by the very industries they are now "rescuing". And yes, it is us, the middle class who is taking the hit.
Outer Space Cadet
What planet are you from ? Oil prices corrected ? You are nuts !!!! The banks did not create the loans, it was the unscrupulous corner market lenders who qualified people and then packaged the loans to the banks who granted did not check out the qualifications and status of each loan.I know a couple of these dime store lenders who made their money and got out clean. I do not like what they did. My friend you can blame the entire system for becoming corrupt or go back to whatever planet you came from !!!!!!!!!
It is possible that oil
It is possible that oil prices have not corrected where you came from. On planet Earth they only went from $147 a barrell to $40 something a barrell. I agree that would sound nuts to someone from another planet. Sorry for not clarifying where I came from.No question that the system is corrupt here on Earth maybe similiar to where you are from - laws are put in place by lobyists paying millions of dollars to get congressmant re-elected. Our current President had the wisdom to promise not to give a lobyist a job, but we now know that was just a typical promise from a typical polititcian. It is a cycle that probably hasn't been broken since Reagan.
Correction from Planet Earth.
The price of a barrell of oil is $47.00 today I believe. However that has not translated into low enough gas prices at the pump Einstein.Don't blame the president , put the blame on the greedy. You see Albert, years ago oil was treated as a non elastic economic product because of the important role oil plays in our every day life. Since speculators on Wall Street have gotten involved it has changed to an elastic process that is controlled by the phony supply and demand inventory levels they keep. A no no when less greedy were involved. What do you sell ? And you give Reagan , that leader of deregulation , the thinker of nothing , the supply side genius credit, for what ? Wow.Reagan was a puppet for Wall Street ,S&L's and anyone else who had your money in their pockets.
So I'm not nuts after all on
So I'm not nuts after all on the oil prices correcting themselves? You are right, the gas price should be lower, but hey $2.00 beats $4.00. I believe for the most part most of us are agreeing - I just haven't heard a lot of discussion on what effect oil prices had on our economy and I truly believe it was the last straw. Sure people overspent on a lot of things. Yes, banks (or whoever it is that does mortgages since banks don't according to Mr. Stallion). Here is who I blame the mess on: The Federal Reserve, Home Buyers, Congress, Real Estate Agents, The Clinton Administration, Mortgage brokers, Alan Greenspan, Wall Street, The Bush administraiton, trippling of the cost of gas and oil (costing most people hundreds extra each month) and our delusion that the economy would always grow. Basically what Bermuda Bob already covered. I borrowed some of this from factcheck.org. Please note: I didn't mention President Obama. I did blame him earlier for breaking respectful and lofty camaign promises of not having lobyists in his cabinet which I stand behind. I also stand behind Reagan. Whatever deregulation you want to blame on him look what he did to our economy after Carter. I am too young to remeber those years. What good is regulation anyway when you have people determined to commit criminal acts? I would prefer we follow Reagan's lead instead of Karl Marx's lead of "spreading the wealth around". I have yet to see any economy that has thrived under that style of government. Relax, Stallion, I think we agree on a few things. Don't have a heart attack before we get our beloved Government Heath Care (it'll have to work as good as Social Security wouldn't you think?) By the way, I sell appliances.
SteadySelling
The cost of a barrell of oil has gone down for sure. They nearly helped bring the country to a standstill at $4.00 plus a gallon though. That still leaves quite a bit of money spread around.Oil is a basic product in quite a few of our everyday lives. Plastic as a material and the power to produce steel and other high volume users. Trucking ,wait ..get with it SS you need to study this some.No sense in me telling you about it.Most of the banks maintained standard types of loans which they approved were fairly safe . It was the corner lenders who used private money to fund loans then they packaged loans as a whole and sold them to the banks. I doubt anyone got a stated income loan from a standard bank like B of A or Wells Fargo ,etc. Especially when they would state they made $200,000 as a construction laborer.Reagan deregulated and we had the Savings and Loan fiasco. Remember the guy named Millikan who took people's money like Madoff did ? It maybe did not affect you but I know plenty of retired people at the time whose pensions went from $1,200 per month to less than $400.00 per month. That's ok Reagan got a $10 million gift home from somebody though.I don't believe in Marxism either but we do need retsraint, if you are in your 30-40's it is your generation in Wall Street whose is the newest group of sharks .
The Dealers
Yes , the dealers are innocent victims of this breakdown of our society and economy. We have a society that encourages aggressive methods to do questionable things yet take no responsibility for those actions. We then have economic sharks who sit on Madison Ave. figuring how to take your grandmother's pension and call it a free economic system that is good for all. No one twisted your grandma's arm. If that fails get money from Uncle Sam because we are the engine of the beast and that is good for America. Unwittingly the only people that have much honor left are the poor people in the middle who think capitalism was ordained by God. How wrong we are ! Then we leave the honest working class dealer salesperson on the street and call it a downturn. We leave the car salesman hoping for a customer and we blame GM . All the while marking time for the market to improve as the sharks take the stocks for next to nothing from the average Joe and turn it into a gold's nest for themselves. Isn't our economy grand ? Yes , we have a down turn , but the rich and abusive love it.Then we have the audacity to single out people who take aid as lazy and robbing the system. Better double check who is robbing who. When you see a dealer on the street with his hand out , help him.
The Manufacturers MUST Support the Dealers !!!
Since the beginning of the year we have seen an ever increasing problem of having enough product to meet the needs of the people who we are lucky enough to walk into the showroom !!! It seems that they are stocking the "Big Box" warehouses before ours !!! I can't tell you how many pieces I've lost because we simply had no concrete idea of when they would be in the warehouse to quote the customer and they need to replace a broken down appliances PRONTO !!! ... and that's a crying shame, because the Dealers are the heart and soul of the business !!!