Service in Luxury Appliances
Does thou protest your objectivity too much??
Submitted by kona on Thu, 09/29/2011 - 2:39pm.
I haven't checked into AA for quite some time, and I'm somewhat bemused how it appears that a couple of folks have hijacked the site to turn it into their own personal "Bash Viking" site. Fascinating stuff, numerous posts and multiple paragraphs bashing Viking, while at the same time, self proclaiming passionately that their "objectivity" towards Viking is unassailable. Is Viking alone among manufacturers who may not be perfect. Aren't some of these posters the same ones who portray Dacor and others as absolute saints of the industry (I guess those guys have never had engineering, product quality or parts issues before?). Not that Viking hasn't had their share (or perhaps more than their share) of issues and mistakes (many arguably self-inflicted), but anyone who's been around this business any length of time knows most manufacturers have at some point gone through similar issues. You read these posts from certain folks and they just seem to be coated in agenda. Deliberately belittling a CEO (by messing with his name) and saying that the guy is no more than "nice", implying that his role in this industry is nothing but being a "face", and slamming AA for giving him an award doesn't appear objective to me. The old "fish wrap for the appliance industry" seems to be giving off a new stink - having been hijacked by a couple of "anonymous experts" to make it their own special place to freely slander a single manufacturer and impugn the reputation of its CEO. It's okay though, because clearly they have gone to great lengths to put forth disclaimers that they have no agenda whatsoever. Fellows, we can all read your posts, and the picture they paint of what you're doing ain't pretty. If you weren't anonymous, and were posting under your real names, you might very well find yourself in court for slander and defamation.
Tell Us Then...
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Thu, 09/29/2011 - 5:56pm.
oh lord what has anyone said that is not accurate ? You and others have slammed many people. All people have done is tell of their vast experience with the product and the issues. Tell me they have not hired others to fix issues , tell me they have been happy with their financial performance. People writing things that have been accurate are different then defamation. I urge and hope they can fix their issues.You even admit to the product problems they have. Make up your mind.I have had too many friends complain about product issues with their products. Shall I tell them to build a website to openly complain about the product ? No I don't want that for anyone but let's not crown them kings yet.We have enough people these days that crown people as exceptional with no apparent standard.You have never had a problem complaining about Dacor or others when your information has been so wrong and biased it is not even funny. Watch your own backyard buddy.
Stallion....
Submitted by Higher Btu on Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:40pm.
After reading a few old posts in the past years I've had my thoughts about who you may be, but it was never important for me to find out. From your experience and tone I just had my theories. However, since this past week was our first time "communicating" to each other, I just can't help wondering if I actually know you. Now after flipping through a few other posts I've finally figured out, I think. Not that it really matters, but it's good to put a face to a name, while I read these very interesting discussions. I hope you're doing well and enjoying life. I've always heard that you've pretty strong opinions and personality so I can't say I'm surprised by you sharing your thoughts. We don't have to agree on here, but can agree to disagree, right? I think many here have tried to be as unbiased as possible, and I do still feel that some of the negative postings towards the Viking ad was uncalled for. From my experience, again, Viking is no different from brands like Dacor, Thermador, Wolf, DCS, GE, Maytag, JennAir, etc. You should. whether you still agree or not, give Viking and Carl a little more credit. You're obviously more grateful to the Josephs and Kalsi for obvious reasons. If Dacor, Thermador, and DCS are such better companies, then why did most of their "contributors" leave, while Viking is still holding on to its original team? Dacor used to be THE company to work for, but that's OLD story. All the great contributors are gone, and that applies to Thermador, DCS, GE, and JennAir as well. Let's not forget the great Dacor dishwasher project too. There's something to say about being "nice". It may not mean much to you, as you like to be told like it is, but I don't find anything wrong with "nice" people.
Higher btu
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Fri, 09/30/2011 - 8:36pm.
I enjoy nice people , but I really respect good people. I have met Fred several times and he is enormously friendly and kind.However I think some of the stuff is over the top.Others pioneers contributed much more and I guess my issue is with legacies only being as historical as the next 21 year old hot shot that does not respect nor care what happened in the past ,especially before 1985. I have issues with that basically in all businesses and you see it in sports too. While I think Viking contributed a unique style to the industry I see nothing else that is groundbreaking. That is my issue with that. Heck the joke about the R & D position was meant as a friendly joke. Since my experience with most R&D people is they are basically on vacation 11 months out of the year as the joke goes. I know some R&D "Scientists" or Engineers that when they develop their next deliverable idea it will be their first. That has nothing to do with Viking though.. Yes , every brand has had it's issues for sure. All I can say is they get fixed quickly.As for your comments on long term employees .I think that is commendable and very nice. I whole heartedly agree with long term allegiance by the owners and senior managers to their people. During my time with you know who I attempted to instill that in the owners to no avail obviously after I left they have had a revolving door. The old saying there is " the newer you are as an employee the smarter you are " with MJ. We eventually all get tired of people's behavior and leave as I did. As for nice , maybe I have softened as people who know me have said , I like nice but I also want good and I want the facts and then deal with them appropriately. I wish Viking well and want to see only the best for the high end guys. The DW , well that I guess was another story. I left before that began. Be well and some of you around here don't take yourself too seriously. I did for 10 years and only felt immensly tired for having to do someone's dirty work putting out 2 new products a week as it seemed and that was never enough.I guess if you know me you would not know how nice I have gotten. Combine that with good and qualified and that makes a good team.Nice does not a good manager make.
Problem with nice.....
Submitted by appliance chef on Fri, 09/30/2011 - 12:39pm.
The majority of people that are "nice" in the business world are two-faced, ass kissing toadies. More worried about making the easy popular decision, than the hard right decision. I'll take "GOOD PEOPLE", who are not afraid to give their honest opinions about important business matters, than " NICE PEOPLE " any day. This is why I respect The Stallion's comments here over some of the others, even when I don't agree with him. He doesn't sugar-coat the truth. Keep on telling it like it is, brother.
Actually Stallion..
Submitted by kona on Thu, 09/29/2011 - 8:04pm.
I've always enjoyed your posts. From day one, you have presented yourself as former VIP in our industry (although I have no idea who you are), and continually assert to the rest of us that your posts possess a gravitas way beyond practically anyone else's. That's all good and I hope much fun for you . However, since you're into facts, and since you've now accused me of all sorts of the kinds of things you are doing, I must point out that (1), I rarely post comments on this site (perhaps a dozen times total in two years), and (2) I have never singled out a manufacturer or an individual in the industry and attacked them period, let alone with such venom. My first and only mention of Dacor in this forum was just to point out that you seem to always hold them up to the rest of us as the shining example of the perfect company. I have never dealt with Dacor personally, so I wouldn't know one way or the other. I said I suspect that Dacor and other companies have probably had their own issues - a personal belief - but in no way did I present any "facts" about anyone. Maybe they are perfect, and if so, they should be congratulated. It might surprise you that I too have companies on my personal list that I don't like, and senior executives in this industry who I particularly detest. You would never know who they are from my few posts on this site, because I don't believe in slandering companies (whoever they are) or disparaging people's reputations (even if I hate them) using the camouflage of anonymous blogging. That's simply cyber-bullying, and I personally find it to be kind of cowardly, and beneath an "industry titan". There may be a great deal of truth in some of or all of the negative statements and anonymously attributed information you put forward (or not, as there is no way to fact check you). It's what you're doing with your "facts" and how you are doing it that I find distasteful. What are your intentions? If you've ever been involved in a defamation suit, you would know that "speaking truths" in and of itself is not a winning defense for actions found to be part of an effort to deliberately and intentionally damage a person's or a company's reputation. If you see yourself as some kind of journalist - simply reporting the events and news of our industry for our benefit - then you should be willing to put your name on your work, and provide attributions for the stories and comments of others. Otherwise you're just a tabloid. As far as the "watch your own backyard buddy" warning, if you're implying that I somehow shouldn't have the same right to comment on these subjects as you do, or if you're implying that you might know who I am and intend to turn your venom against me, then you really do have bullying issues.
Kona....
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Fri, 09/30/2011 - 8:03pm.
My comments come from very accurate experience. I do not like bullies and I don't consider a discussion on a web site speaking the truth as I know it bullying. I personally have nothing against anyone but I detest BS in it's highest form of flattery undeserved. That is my point.As for your last comment , you are paranoid and I don't even think twice about who you are or where you live. You sound neurotic personally.You have the right to think any way you wish , I don't care. However I have that same right and you act like a Philidelphia lawyer concerning my observations about products. Hell you broke the law three times in this e-mail alone.If you don't like what I write don't read it or better yet stay out of the discussion.
A tip of the old stetson to you Stalliion
Submitted by kona on Mon, 10/03/2011 - 7:43pm.
Stallion you have an absolute gift. I really am a neurotic, paranoid, law breakin', Philadelphia attorney. How you figured me out is beyond me. All I ask is two things: Please don't vote me off the AA Island all powerful one, and don't forget your Geritol. Happy trails.
I Don't ...
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Tue, 10/04/2011 - 1:35pm.
need geritol holmes. I've got you to spark my passion. I also like how you twist your cynical humor around to make it look like patrinization. Weak stuff. The fact is you are what you are. Stetson huh ? What.... did your wife tell you to start using your head so you put a 10 gallon hat on top ?
As someone who might enjoy a little conflict......
Submitted by mookie on Tue, 10/04/2011 - 6:37pm.
May I point out that this is not your first biblical quotation. Just sayin......
applianceadvisor.com/content/cash-appliance-clunkers-pr-fiasco0019#comment-1051
A soft answer
Submitted by Cohiba on Wed, 10/05/2011 - 11:56am.
"A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger." Proverbs 15:1
(I'm just saying ....)
Cohiba...
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Wed, 10/05/2011 - 12:52pm.
I suspect that this will be taken out of context. However there simply is a difference in being harsh and giving someone an answer that is not acceptable to them. I understand that and consequently I don't get my panties in a wad. A disagreement is not harsh unless you are a right wing nut these days.Soft answers discussing politics , the economy or this industry are condescending at best. Now if I met you and we talked you would find out I am not harsh or angry. The context of the bible quote relates more to how you live your life and everyone's comments are taken the wrong way when their is disagreement on this site or any site probably for that matter. I would suggest that everything is not always perfect and people will disagree.That is not harsh. Soft or condescending does not work on a site such as this. As I will continue to say , most people here take themselves too seriously when it comes to opinions. Here is a bible quote for BB " A quick tempered man does foolish things , and a crafty man is hated " (Proverbs 14:17 )
A Fitting Admonishment ...
Submitted by Bermuda Bob on Thu, 10/06/2011 - 8:59pm.
"Even the Devil can quote Scrupture to further his purpose ... An evil soul producing a holy witness is like a villian with a smiling cheek ... A goodly apple, rotten at the heart: Oh, what a goodly outside falshood hath !!!"
I See You Have ....
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Thu, 10/06/2011 - 9:57pm.
not changed your spots. I actually graduated from a Christian University Bob and the challenge I have is holding my tongue and temper with a person like you. By the way , I also spent eight years in a Christian grade school so as you attempt to put me in the garden with Jesus I suggest you act as you say you expect others to, not like a wild tempered child who when someone does not cow tow to his whims gets really mad. I suspect though that you will not be consistent about that. One thing I can count on is you being you. Who are you today Bermuda or Bob ? Be well and I hope you can be more forgiving and less angry in the future.I certainly forgive you my brother.
I've Asked ...
Submitted by Bermuda Bob on Fri, 10/07/2011 - 3:01am.
... over, and over, and over again to leave me alone ... and you saw it necessary to attack me without my even being in the topic ... I would have thought that just another violation of the code of decorum here ... and then you have the gall to get sanctimonious !!!
I'd be curious what brand of "christian" education you identify with because your profession of it is betrayed by your venom ...
Unless and until you wish to debate me seriatim against what I say, then please, once again, I ask that you leave me alone ...
I did not address you, you were wrong to attempt to besmirch me !!!
Cohiba....
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Thu, 10/06/2011 - 4:29pm.
I took it as a joke.I guess I got carried away.....again.
Sounds of Silence....
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Wed, 10/05/2011 - 12:10pm.
I think Simon & Garfunkel had it right in 1965 when they wrote the lyrics to this song."Hello darkness my old friend...I've come to talk to you again...because a vision softly creeping.....left its seeds while I was sleeping...and the vision that was planted in my brain still remains..within the sounds of silence".... to verse three...."And in the naked light I saw ....ten thousand people maybe more..people talking without speaking...people hearing without listening..people writing songs that voices never share..and no one dared...disturb the sounds of silence." Sounds like the age of....... you guessed it computers. Do yourself a favor and read all the lyrics to the song....The final words seem appropriate...."The words of the prophet are written on the subway walls and tenement halls..and whispered in the sounds of silence" That pretty much sums us all up and brings the " Sounds of Silence"........
It is Not ....
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Tue, 10/04/2011 - 4:23pm.
so much conflict as much as it is people who take themselves and the comments so seriously where cynical humor is involved. Based on that premise my feelings never get hurt. Everyone has two rights. One to dish it out and two.. to take it like a man or a woman. As for product perfomances we all have our educated opinions based on fact and I may disagree with others but it is their educated opinion. My recent comment back to kona would have elicited laughter if done at a group meeting or lunch as would have his comments about me. As for HOF ...it is over rated. We seek out heroes and villians too quickly and usually both categories get it wrong most of the time. The person at the helm usually gets too much credit for right or wrong. The point is missed.I do not think any person or company gets hurt by anyone here commenting about the products. That is because it is a small sampling that has some very myopic experience. So while a Viking or a Dacor gets a couple of poor marks here my guess is they each get ten thousand good marks every month. After all many people are buying their products and all in all they are very good companies.Like I say the point is missed. As you say it is not editorializing , it is educated opinions.
Advisor.....
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Mon, 09/26/2011 - 6:38pm.
When we comment about products here it is with the utmost accuracy. Here is my point. Accolades get mounted on top of a Viking product that simply has not been able to compare favorably with the competition.. The service group has had plenty of practice to respond well to customers needs. That being said how can one get so many accolades and be considered a pioneer ? I guess it is because they are such nice people. Dacor and others have been pounded to death here. Is it because they simply are honest in their approach and at times tell it like it is ? My guess is yes.The founders of DCS , the owners of Dacor , Sub/Zero ,Jade , Alfresco , Lynx and Jack Meany from THD have done more to put out products with an impact on the industry but perhaps are not as nice. I have always gotten tired of people getting more credit just because they pass someone's sniff test. I would not as a matter of practice tell my friends not to buy their products.Let the buyer beware of anything they purchase from anyone.
Theory of Evolution- Appliance Style
Submitted by rllingstne on Mon, 09/26/2011 - 9:29pm.
As I see it, every company of significance in our appliance industry has gone through exactly what Viking has went through.
- They develop a unique product which gains popularity
- sales volumes grow
- service problems rear their ugly head
- solutions are found and a better quality more relaible product results
Jenn Air, Dacor, Thermador, Amana, Sub Zero etc. etc. have all gone through this and yet Viking is considered the "black eye" that has marred the industry. What a crock. I have personally lived through the growing pains experienced by a few of the aforementioned companies. In a few cases, it was not the first generation product that was the problem, it was a product built 25 or so years into the life of the company.(see Dacor, Thermador) Viking is in the last phase of my theory of evolution. In my opinion, the one mistake that Viking made was trying to be all things to all people with a full indoor and outdoor kitchen. Much of their engineering efforts went into producing new products that were not at the core of the business- indoor cooking. How much time and effort went into producing a dishwasher that works as opposed to one that didnt't.......................... Probably most infuriating to me was the pot shots that were taken without response until High BTU's comments.They are an easy target. They deserve the accolades for being a pioneer. We have all made a lot of money on "Professional Products for the home". Would Sub have bought Wolf if not for Viking. Would there be an Epicure collection if not for Viking. I could go on and on but hopefully I made my point. I would be the first to critcize if they were not making the effort to evolve. They are making the effort, so cut them some slack.
Cut them some slack???
Submitted by appliance chef on Wed, 09/28/2011 - 1:30pm.
WOW!!! Because Viking is making an effort to "EVOLVE" & improve their products, that gives them immunitity from any negative critcizim. I was 1st attracted to this site when I read a blog about all the problems Fisher & Paykel were having. I read alot of negative comments from alot of different people, even from their own people. I didnt see you or anyone else whining about cutting them some slack.... To the best of my knowledge, I thought this forum was openned to the consumer too. If I was going to spend over $5,000 for a pro-range, you damn right I'm going to want to know if there's any service issues. Especially if electrical connectors are melting from the oven heat......it was bad judgement by the advisor to post the VIKING job ad on the news forum & not blocking comments. He was big enough to acknowledge it and apologize for it. I'll tell you one thing. As much as I was put off by some of the Vikings service issues, I'm TOTALLY anti-Viking now, after some of the comments posted by their people here. Get off your high horses, cause I don't care what pioneering role Viking played in the pro kitchen for the home owner. As a technician & as a consumer, I think that gives me the right to give my honest opinion here. The accolades & critcizism are well deserved.
WOW!!!!!!
Submitted by rllingstne on Wed, 09/28/2011 - 11:08pm.
Mr.chef First of all, I am not "one of their people" I do not work for Viking, but I might apply for the Caribbean service manager's position. ....... . I am a free thinking fan of this site and have been in this industry longer than Viking has existed. What I take issue with is comments such as Viking is the black eye that has marred our entire industry. Why are they carrying the weight of an entire industry on their shoulders, while other brands that have a long and storied service history have not had to share equally in this burden. Like you, I want to be able to express my opinion. My opinion is that Viking was being not just criticized, they were being vilified. You would not see me commenting if it were mere criticism. As I pointed out, many other brands have had products with chronic problems. The companies that I have worked for have done very well financially because of it......lol I never, at any time suggested that we not publicize issues. That is after all what this site is about. Melting electrical connectors, shame on them. It shouldn't happen and I DO want to know about it. My point was that there have been Many well known brands that have followed the same path and evolved to be a better company. While I am at it, I might as well ask all of you learned folks who exactly created the Professional Range for the Home. I know Fred is taking all of the credit for it. Who are these other 9 or 10 people?
rllingstne...
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:58am.
Most people in the industry as long as you would know the fine people who helped kick off the craze of professional designs.I am not sure where you got 9 or 10 people from though. So I suggest you ask other folks who they are since you seem to be an old timer.While other companies have taken the idea of professional cooking to a high level and made money on that I don't understand how you can give credit to Viking for that. Liston Durden did a wonderful job with the Viking name however the other organizations made their money based on their outstanding performances and adjustments when things went bad. I could tell you some funny stories about when we introduced our line of products and how Viking would sneak in the booth both during and after the shows to look at the improvements we and others made. Hell one of our owners and I watched one guy sneak in and take a handful of a special brochure we made. We went up to him and offerd him a boxful. So I like to say that sometimes people's next technological idea will be their first original idea.As far as carrying the industry I suspect that Wolf/Sub Zero is doing their share of that. You are slightly misinformed.My entire issue is they get too much credit for not doing much. I would guess these service guys know better than most though since they have to deal with it day in and day out.
Stallion.....
Submitted by appliance chef on Sat, 10/01/2011 - 9:06am.
I was wondering if you know what service issues DCS were having from '06 - present??? After I left F&P I dont remember coming across a home owner who owned any DCS products on my service route. (thats how bad a job F&P did promoting DCS) Right before I left I know there was a issue with the sealed gas broil burner not igniting properly, causing gas pressure to build and creating a bazooka effect thru the vent......PS one time at a trade show in NYC that I was setting up for the manufactor (because of a legal matter, I can't say who it is) I went to work for after F&P, I caught a bunch of Miele's people on our display. Damn, I wish I knew they were there trying to steal ideas and I was supposed to break their legs. If I remember right, I think I actually gave complete details about the French door built-in refrigerator. Oh well, it'll serve them right if they did steal anything. That model had service issue after service issue....LOL!!!
Appliance Chef...
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Sun, 10/02/2011 - 12:40pm.
Once Fisher & Paykel bought DCS from the investors I pretty much lost sight of what was happening. I was duly impressed with the DCS products developed by Surjit and his partners, They made a very fundamentally simple product with little chance for problems and had good performance, Very little in the way of service, The biggest issues with their grill were the porcelain heat rods which would crack during shipment. All in all a solid product pre F&P.Even the investor could not screw that up.
Stallion....
Submitted by appliance chef on Sun, 10/02/2011 - 7:53pm.
Thats it??? The porcelain rods. I bought a DCS 48" grill for the insane price of $250 with the stain-less steel cart when I worked for F&P. The greatest single purchase of my life. The heat those ceramic rods produce is just awesome.....was it Surjit & his partners who developed the wok burner also??? Because that was a great product too......too bad F&P brass didnt hire a professional chef to showcase the DCS line. They opted to use their home economist whose signature dish was a "Rummy"- toasted english muffin topped with coconut rum butter icing (i shit you not). At a dealer demo, to promote how great the wok was, she opened a bag of frozen stir-fry vegetables tossed with a bottle of teriyaki sauce..... You can imagine how unimpressed the dealers were. I hope F&P are forced to sell DCS. It's a total shame that such great pro-kitchen appliances arent promoted properly.
Appliance chef...
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Mon, 10/03/2011 - 12:30pm.
The only other problem with the grill was the piezo ignition switch that people would turn backwards and then break.That was changed but it is a great product. Yes , Surjit and Randy did develop the WOK burner. F&P was not interested in hiring anyone that was not their idea.They did not know the high end market and were only slightly better than the investors who bought DCS first and then nearly gave it away.I think and in my humble opinion Surjit above all the other owners is the MVP because he could actually design the products and get them to production. So his going from 0 to $100 million was largely due to his technical know how and working his customer base . He had some great support with Randy and Roberto. The investors who purchased DCS were wrong in letting Surjit and Roberto go.It cost the iinvestors and they don't even have that history on their website anymore. I would suggest that Surjit would be my Number One pick for any high end HOF.I don't think he gets enough credit because he is perceived as being tough and not nice. He however is a softy but he gets it done with a sound business demeanor.
Stallion
Submitted by rllingstne on Fri, 09/30/2011 - 10:15pm.
I was trying something new on this site.....exaggerating, lol. I know it is not 9 or 10. I have been in the indusry a long time and I don't know of anyone that developed the concept and produced a Professional Range for the home prior to Fred. Others may have produced more "innovative" and technologically superior products, but I don't think they did it before Fred.Your story of the guy sneaking into the booth is hilarious, I remember at KBIS one year, there was a lot of picture taking at certain booths and the next year, Electrolux would not allow anyone on there booth with an LG or Samsung badge. There were some pretty pissed off dealers who were there as a guest of LG and Samsung.I too think that we have met in one of my previous lives. If you are who I think you are, it's good to see the years have not softened your forethright opinions.
rllingstne...
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Sun, 10/02/2011 - 4:20pm.
Yes we had some good laughs at the KBIS shows that helped with all the hard work we all did. I guess though that based on the comments here that although it appeared I was being tough on Viking there are some substantitive issues yet to be resolved. I am hoping they will get the issues behind them and be able to rebuild the confidence they need from the sales people in the field. After all without sales field support , nothing they do will help. I would guess the field is beyond the lip service everyone seems to perform when product performance is bad no matter who the company is. Good luck to them.Take care. Talk soon.
Rllingstne.....
Submitted by appliance chef on Thu, 09/29/2011 - 11:20am.
while I agree with you about black-eye comment being a little over the top & unfair, I disagree with you about other brands not being equally criticized and not sharing the burden. I've read many of the archive news blogs about the manufactors who I was employed by & others I have done service for, and there were MANY NEGATIVE COMMENTS as well. Alot were unfair & uncalled for also......I know all about the other high end brands having even worse service issues than Viking. I was an in-home tech. I've talked shop with their factory techs riding the service elevators in NYC. I had many home owners complain to me about their issues. Some were even pleading for me to service their appliances, even though they knew this would void their factory warranty, but were at the end of their rope with the manufactor ......if I misunderstood your prior comment as - because Viking are pioneers in the pro-range for the home market, then we all should just shut the bleep up and cut them some slack because without Viking, there wouldnt be a pro-range market in the 1st place- then I apologize. But that's how it came across.
Chef
Submitted by rllingstne on Fri, 09/30/2011 - 10:26pm.
I too was a tech a one time and I am sure I have similar stories to you. If I gave the impression that we should shut the bleep up and bow are heads just because they are Viking, the originator of .....(maybe???) I regret that. I was just sick and tired of the pot shots taken at them as if they were the first/ only appliance company that has strolled down this road before.I will take any company to task for producing susstandard products. My main point was that they appear to be heading in the right direction. they are not quite there yet, but in my opinion, the compass is pointing in the right direction.
the originator of the first pro residential range...
Submitted by tagoneo on Sat, 10/01/2011 - 8:27am.
...I believe was Thermador in 1948. Or so their timeline claims. But yes, Viking did bust open the residential pro range market widespread. Yes, everyone has had their problems, and some handled it poorly, some handled it properly, and of course it is all different when evaluated case by case. So then why is the entire retail market so jaded against Viking? And for so many years? I have been in this industry since 1986, and have not heard as much negativity towards any company as I have Viking. Again, all but one self-servicing dealer up here has dumped the line because of all the issues, as well as many selling-only dealers dropping it. Rllingstone, all respects intended, but that compass pointing in the right direction is a story I have heard from Viking reps repeatedly for years. It's time that they start walking the line that the compass is pointing, before the compass points them in their current direction, which is just where the current test results from CU shows them going....continued downward spiral with nowhere to go. Again, all the companies have had their issues, but not to the consistent level that Viking has had. 15 or more years of negativity should have been enough for any one company to wake up and smell the coffee. Myself, I would LOVE to sell their products again. But if initial quality is not there, as well as bad parts availability with repeated failures, and again this is my own personal opinion, but that product will never be sold by me until they get their head out of *ahem* and start walking the line that the compass we are all screaming for them to follow is pointing.
rllingstne
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Tue, 09/27/2011 - 3:35pm.
I guess I will address the issues as you present them. Developed a unique product ? What technology was included in the product to make it unique or an industry first outside of the outer look ? The sales volume did grow and service issues and costs have mounted. I guess where I sit I may have some knowledge of the fact the investment firm that really owns them has not been happy and some changes have been made that have yet to fix the majority of the issues. They are slow to respond , have had a very difficult time hiring engineers and when they have no one listened to those engineers.In summary , each of the organizations you have listed have had similar issues and in fact fixed them quickly. All of them had groundbreaking technology that stood out. The idea of "Professional Products for the Home" was borne out of others who did not get credit. Along with DCS those other companies had owners who made a difference and pushed the technological window with good people working for them. I personally find it difficult to see one person who gets all the credit just because he is nice. My issue is giving credit to those who deserve it. Yes , it probably is easier to deal with nice people but I don't believe they ever had groundbreaking technology that pushed the industry to better things.In fact when I was with one of those other companies it was the notion of consumer interest in commercial style performance that peaked our interest and we certainly did not reverse engineer anyone's product. Because those technically involved always thought they would make products that would perform better. I think you should look back and see the hatred and nasty comments about Dacor , THD and some of the other ones over the years. I just think that has not been fair either.These are my educated opinions.
Making an effort for 15 years plus
Submitted by tagoneo on Tue, 09/27/2011 - 10:53am.
More of the same old news about Viking. Lack of performance, lack of reliability, yet that name is solid in the workplace. Why can Viking not get their act together and solidify the product and make it strong again? I have not sold Viking in over 12 years, and I hear the same exact stories from current Viking owners that I heard back then - takes too long to get parts, breaks down too much, the same stories repeated. Thankfully it is a product line not sold here. Rllingstne, I wish they would evolve. But if they can't evolve after 12 years, will they ever? Instead they come out with a designer line to capture more market share. Why not fix what you currently have, and then come out for more market share with a product that works? Glad I got to read the consumer reports article about the Viking range tests. More confirmation of the same old story. Truly a shame.
Yes ..Read...
Submitted by Appliance Stallion on Tue, 09/27/2011 - 12:27pm.
my comment above. Your points are well taken since test results don't lie and neither does customer stories of inadequate performance and poor response. So they hire someone to beat the shit out of suppliers from what I hear. Well I guess that fixes the problems by lowering parts cost ? I have heard this from several suppliers who got invited to the factory. I suggest they internalize their efforts with more solid engineering of products.
So a manufactuer decides
So a manufactuer decides to use your wonderful website and post an ad (I'm assumimg they paid too) just so you can lay it out there for people to make fun and share their "professional" comments about a simple job ad? Very nice dear advisor and your great professional and very mature subscribers. Over the past decade it just seems like I need to try harder each time to find anything useful to read here while filtering out the useless crap posted by bunch of washed-up "appliance experts" who knew their days and expertise is really behind them. Get a life, guys. You keep seeing the same bunch of guys on here yapping on, really reminds me of some useless home association group. It really would be nice for this site to be posting some useful information for the industry for a change. I know you try Advisor but the content and quality is really going down. Really a shame. At one time there was promise. Now it is just junk from junk for junk.By the way, I think Carl is spelled with a C, not K.
Between a Rock and Hard Place
We have used the news section several times to draw attention to available jobs. Jobs are a good thing, we think. In the past it had not drawn negative comments, so the comments feature had never been shut down.
The commenters (whether you agree with the comments or not) are not at fault. We have stated our rules of commenting, and protecting advertisers was never one of them. The comments which followed have been terribly embarrassing to us at ApplianceAdvisor.com. It is one thing for comments to turn negative coincident with an advert, but it is another for the advert itself to be the draw for negative comment
The fault is entirely our own.
We should have shut down the comment feature on that item.
Why haven't we deleted the comments? In a way, we have painted ourselves into a corner. We allow free expression on the site, within the rules, and these comments were within the rules.
So what's an editor to do? We will shift these comments to a new Forum subject, eliminate the comments in this section, and shut down comments on this section.
Now to our opinion about the comments made:
We think that the comments are unfair, in that Viking seems to be making great strides in improving service levels.
Viking is America's greatest appliance story of the last three decades. Inventing an entirely new segment. A beacon of American manufacturing and product and marketing leadership. We have great affection for the product, the branding and the people of Viking.
We are in a complex business, and not one brand has been able to run their business without the occassional mistake. What we look for is the good faith efforts made to fix the inevitable problems and protect the customer.
I applaud the Advisor for
I applaud the Advisor for recognizing and understand the first point I was making, which is that while commenting on here in a forum setting is our freedom of speech that I acknowledge, but taking cheap shots at a simple ad that a customer cared to post on your site is a bit unprofessional. I believe the Advisor has addressed this issue. As for the rest of the comments, I again aknowledge parts of them, and even agree with some of them. I guess that's the beauty of our country and this website. I don't say that Viking or Carl is above all appliance manufacturers. I'm around long enough to know they all have their faults. I happen to know some of the shortcomings of other brands also, which can be a great topic of us old experts to go over someday. The point is, being around the industry for a while doesn't give me the right to take cheap shots at other brands (that is just my own opinion), but it may give me the rights to speak up for those old timers who are no longer around to defend themselves or those care to speak up. Viking is no worse than many brands I have put my hands on. Good posting is very enjoyable to read and learn from. Negative and cheap posting are disturbing and unnecessary for this industry. By the way, definitely no disrepect to the passings of those great appliance giants.
I Know How it is Spelled...
I spelled it that way on purpose. The problem with this country now a days from some of us "washed up" guys is that it is amazing how some products can make it as far as they have and some people buy it . Some of the products give the industry a bad name . Not those of us who contibuted new innovation to the industry my friend. I suggest most who come to this site and comment regardless of our political bent still know this industry pretty good since most of us had something to do with the current technology. So I suggest you understand who you are talking to before you make some very innaccurate statements again. It appears you don't respect the good legacy of people outside of Greenwood.Let's just say the industry does not whimper at every comment out of that area. My comments come from the hundred or so products that were tested that needed service in the test lab.That performance is what gives the industry a bad name . That is a fact. It is time that gets turned around.Leaving the industry was my choice.I am not retired and my best days are still ahead of me .I would be eager to hear of one technological breakthrough made from this product line that took the industry by storm. The Forest Green color does not count.Neither does the ten or so people who actually developed the first product that never got credit.
Useful Information
Higher BTU,
As one of the "washed-up appliance experts" (whose expertise is far behind me), I read this site often to keep up with industry news. I post fairly regularly when I think I have something to contribute. During the past quarter, there were several news postings of interest to me.
Each of these news items were accompanied by postings from individuals that are currently employed in the industry as well as some old washed up guys who were around long enough to know and respect Mr. Friedman and Uihlein and remembered when Kuppersbusch entered the U.S. market.
Of course there have also been banters back and forth on the state of the economy, taxes and politics. But, while you may find these topics to be "junk", I believe they have some small relevance to the appliance industry. (at least they did during the "good old days" before I got "washed up").
And, it may interest you to know that Fred Carl (spelled correctly) was named as the first recipient of AA's Hall of Heroes.
Most Unfortunately ...
... the brand to whom every new entry into the marketplace was compared as the standard has now become a shadow of itself ...
External Style...
apparently became more important at some point. When some of the other high end guys were hard at work on performance the "style and smile " was the order of the day for them. I suspect it is very difficult to draft high quality Engineering talent to move to their location. At some point Engineering shortcomings become very apparent for any organization. I would hope , as always that they can turn that around and regain their once good name and diminish the black eye to the industry. Showing those fancy colors on a wall at the show only goes so far. I can tell you that was very funny for those of us who would see that at all the shows regardless of how effective that was.As you can see the technical performance has caught up with them.Good luck. I wonder ... so many people have taken credit for designing their first product. What happened to that ? Some have passed and some created very successful businesses of their own.If all the claims were true.
Stallion.....
the major reason for some of the manufactors paying more attention to style over performance is because it was what alot of consumers were demanding. Especially the home designers of the ultra modern kitchens for people whose idea of cooking at home meant boiling water for tea. The manufactor who I worked after F&P relocated the bolts of the burner valve access panel from the front - which was super convient & easy to service - to the back, which now required the bulky pro-range to be pulled out from cabinets. Because some idiots thought the bolt heads didnt offer a clean & sleek look. I'd like to bring these geniuses on a service call when theres a problem with the extra-low burners and it needs a pot. kit installed. They can carry all the equipment necessary to get pro-range out.
Chef...
I fully understand that. I was in the middle of that. However we continued to push the envelope on new technology that compared to the style. My point was that Viking gave up on that long ago. I know 2 engineers that I would vouch heavily for their skills went to work for Viking in Greenwood and the environment was indicative of a top down driven technology from people who did not understand the need for sealed burners , new ignitor technology , insulated products from heat issues , burner configuration. I suspect not much beyond the muscle of attempting to make a pretty unit with commercial numbers. As we know commercial products do not have the same requirements as the consumer market does.I suppose Karl gets a pass because he is " nice". To each his own I guess. As I said yesterday I would hope that the internal changes taking place will help them become a better product. The industry needs that. I do wish them well.As I also stated before my opinions come from our own independent testing of their products and a large handful of friends not happy with the reliability of those products
One good thing about that job...
...is that the product line will definitely keep a service manager out on the road quite a bit, thereby being able to partake of all the beauty of the Caribbean and Latin America. In my own personal opinion, It really is a shame to see such a good company with a good background not able to make a product that stays functional or that can simmer low enough to be able to be used by a professional chef and not burn chocolate. But hey...service techs need something to keep them employed, right?
It is a shame...
the Viking line has some service issues. Being a former professional chef and a former appliance tech, I really wanted to like Viking. Their ranges look awesome and are on par, performance wise, of some of the equipment I've used in the restaurant biz. But I also had the chance to service them too, several years ago, and they really lefted me un-impressed. I don't want to use a propane lighter everytime there's a problem with the spark modules. Plus both bake gas ignitors should & need to be replace, even though only 1 was defective. Out of all the high end pro lines, Viking had the most unsatisfied consumers. Just my opinion.
You Cannot.....
Confuse Fred Karl's "good old boy smile" with product performance. Liston ran interference and Fred smiles.That does not make for good products. I will say that when I have contacted them for friends who have had issues they are handled promptly but I myself from historical testing data would not purchase their products. The other fact of people having to enlist my help means something else is not right. You know they have had some internal changes and perhaps those are a result of the product performance and warranty costs. Industry insiders have indicated as much to me for quite some time.
Viking R&D
Your description above describes the state of their Research and Development Lab ? I'm just saying from the complaints I have heard about some of the products.