The Scourge of the Gulf Conundrum
Submitted by Bermuda Bob on Fri, 06/18/2010 - 2:47pm.
I think that each and every thinking adult has opined on Gulf Leak and the Obama mishandling of it, and most, I've discovered are pretty much knee-jerk reactions heard in those infamous media sound bites ... and that's too bad, because there are more things to consider when evaluating the efforts, so I ask you to please consider some of my points ...
1. LEAK STATISTICS indicate that up to 60,000 barrels (a barrel is 42 gallons) a day, which converts to 22 gallons of gasoline per barrel when refined, leaving the rest for diesel fuel and heating fuel ... So, how many gallons of gas do you use a week ??? Multiply that and you get 1.32 million gallons of gasoline each day !!!
The average America dedicates 14.5% of their monthly budget to gasoline, so if this statistic does not move you then ... well, ???
2. OBAMA'S BOONDOGGLE is the same as was Al Gore's ... their jets !!! Boeing states that the 747 consumes 5 (five) gallons of fuel per mile ... it's approximately 950-1000 miles from Andrews AFB to the Gulf airports large enough to land her ... so, worst case scenario is the Obama burns 10,000 gallons of fuel for a 2000 mile round trip "Photo Op" in the Gulf !!!
Isn't there a better way than to waste natural resources just to see a disaster which he has not gotten his arms around ???
3. THE JONES ACT, which essentially prohibits foreign commercial vessels in the Gulf of Mexico (our waters) has not yet been temporarily waived as was done by (former) Home Land Security Chief Chertoff during Katrina ... Within days of the oil spill, several European countries offered Obama ships specially equipped with the technologies to help remediate the oil leaked ...
Obama, to date, has ignored the offers of this expertise which the United States does not possess in the numbers European countries do !!!
It time to demand that the anti-business leadership in Washington stop treating this like yet another political inconvenience to their re-election ... Businessmen are needed ... not Nobel Laureates ... men of action who are interested in remediation, not re-election !!!
Agree.
Don't have time to be wordy but the world is certainly a different place and now more than ever is driven by greed. Some drink the kool-aid that says we can be self regulated , that is truly inaccurate and unhealthy. Greed , no regard for safety and health and no regard to spread the wealth has created a super rich society with no regard for the average person which has made our economy strong. I laugh at the folks who own a home worth several hundred thousand dollars,own a new car and make $100,000 and think like Bill Gates or Warren Buffett. Proper regulation and a closer look at this oil situation more than likely would have prevented this. More regulation of loans , banks and Wall Street. Anyone see a pattern here ?
C-R-I-M-E
Evil in espanol. That is all I can say. How bout these headlines.
The administration says that it believes it is far too dangerous to drill 1 mile deep in the Gulf. It is better to put Americans out of work. Besides, they duped BP into coughing up $20 billion to pay for those poor out of work saps. But wait......
Wow, Petrobras must be doing some "safe" drilling in shallow water, why else would the Obama administration, who favors putting Americans out of work because of this risk loan them money? Lets see, the report says that the drilling will take place at up to seven kilometers. I'm such a dumb American, what does 7 kilometers convert to in real distance? 45 feet? Thank God, the report says that 7 kilometers = 4.3 miles. Hmmmmmmm. Why would they do that?
Wow, these guys make Dick Cheney look like a girl. That is the Chcago way. I hope it makes your stomach sick. It does to me.
E-V-I-L
Dateline June 9, 2010 - Soros Fund Management bullish on Petrobras (REALLY BIG OIL OWNED BY THE GOVERNMENT OF BRAZIL). Increases his position by 17%. Welcome to Mexico gang, we have arrived. www.marketfolly.com/2010/06/soros-fund-management-bullish-on.html
Got your back, George!
Who's got your back George! www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/22/gulf.oil.disaster/index.html
Your stuff is wrong
Hey Mookie, your contentions are not supported by any evidence.
1) Your federal judge evidently misled everyone by his significant holdings in oil stocks. I had not read that the president mislead anyone. Please let us know how. The evidently corrupt judge said that that administration over stretched in banning all deep drilling.
2) I would agree that if something is too dangerous, that the people who do it should be put out of work. If the building is not strong enough, it seems ok to lay off the workers until they figure out a fix. If a plane crashes and significant safety and designs flaws are discovered, seems ok to lay off the pilots and staff and ground all similar planes until you figure that out. This isn't rocket science.
3) Also seems like a neat negotiation to get $20 billion to put in escrow incase BP means Belly uP. That's what we call good business sense. Anything else would demented. Again, this isn't rocket science.
4) The US Export Import bank to loan money for oil drilling. Yes. 11 months ago, in August of 2009. Your news should be NEWS. Obama once thought that the oil drilling was regulated.....it turns out it was not, and the premise of all your arguments, that business is self regulating, proved also to be horrifyingly false. Now Obama knows the truth. You should pick up the pace to keep up.
5) Soros? Soros???? Your on your own here.
I don't think so
Through the looking glass......
Deep water drilling is based on assumptions of safety and standards of work which have been proved wrong. Based on assumptions of inspection and oversight which have been proved wrong. Based on assumptions of accident clean up methods and disaster protocols which have been proved wrong. So yes we should shut down the industry as we did with 9/11 airplanes, spinach and salmonella, whaling, lawn darts, anything by the CPSC, and any number of other industries which have also been shut down when they could not prove the claims they had long made. Your judge seems corrupt
Confiscation would require that the government take the money directly from BP. This is not what happened. BP had a choice. Certainly the US government compromised.....perhaps too much by allowing BP to remain in business in the US only if it forked over the $20 bills for the escrow. BP has licenses and permits to work in the country based on skills they evidently do not have, and safety standards they cannot meet. The government may have gotten the short end here. Negotiated settlements are reached all the time, and BP very likely considers itself lucky to get this one.
A free market solution to regulation. Self regulated? Self policed? Good luck with that.
Regulations like unions are a product of their environment and are created because some boob found sound horrendously creative way to screw up the world, before a regulation existed. Regulations are reactive not pre-emptive.
You are proposing unregulated air traffic, unregulated water safety, unregulated pharmaceuticals, unregulated sewage treatment, chemical dumping, radioactive materials handling, building structural design, deep sea oil drilling, endangered animal hunting, mining, water fracking gas drilling, food safety, restaurant sanitation, banking, finance and insurance and on-hand liquidity to support these businesses, standards of education. They will just have to pay for the troubles they cause, even if the troubles they cause take years, decades, 20 decades to appear.
That's fantastic, and just enough better than the regulatory system of Sudan, Nigeria, and Liberia........who could possibly complain?
The Soros things seems to be hanging by a thread and is simply a bizarre conspiracy theory based on nothing. It should not be a surprise that righty's think like righty's and lefty's think like lefty's. If Soros were running the show, why would he be talking through the press? Really? The man behind the curtain get's all his dirty jobs done by communicating to the president through the press? Someone as powerful as Soros? Doesn't he have a Twitter account?
If true, by the way, how would this differ from the NRA, Focus on the Family, US Chamber of Commerce, Saudia Arabia, the oil industry, Black Water, the defense industry's power over Republican action? Republicans have their pressure points, and so do the Democrats. If Soros doesn't have his ear, someone else does. They are politicians after all.
Not getting the jist
I don't understand the argument about the gallons of gasoline.
I'm not sure that I entirely get the question about the 747. It's political suicide not to visit disasters. Katrina would be the last lesson. No point arguing about the piddly fuel of one 747, when no one has any choice.
The Jones Act: Seems that pressure to change the law arose about the time the spill estimate was raised 10X. At 1/10, we were supposed to be able to handle it all, so why have the the foreigners skimming.
Let's try this ...
Sorry for the delay in responding ...
1. By converting the barrels of oil being leaked into the Gulf into gasoline, I was attempting to explain the leak more in terms which normal every-day people could understand, and possibly become as outraged as I think everyone should be !!!
It's not ONLY the environmental aspect, nor the impact on livelihoods, but it is the WASTE ... the WASTE of a natural resource, and the undeniable CRIME of it !!!
2. As far as the 747 is concerned, I was trying to show what he relative cost of a "Photo Op" was ... plus the fact that I believe we ought be aware of such a WASTE just to make "nice-nice" with the public !!!
3. To my knowledge, the Jones Act has not yet been temporarily suspended for the catastrophe and thusly, the remediation equipment which other nations have which could be of aid in the Gulf is not being facilitated !!!
Photo Op
I have to disagree with you on the photo-op. It matters to this or any president to see the actual scope of the problem on the Gulf in overseas war zones, where ever. It ain't all photo op. Most of it has to be the cut the BS, through the red tape direct education of your leaders. There's even great management terms for it.
"Management by Walking Around" gets a leader into the field or the factory floor to pick up trends or flaws in the system by seeing the people out there, building relationships and cutting through the multi-level management crap that can get in the way of information flow.
"Management by Exception" get a leader focused on fires, small and large, issues that raise their heads above the crowd because of financial or production numbers not matching the forecast.
The Gulf is beyond both of these, and hell if I know the right management term for this, but it needs to be done for a leader to know what he's dealing with beyond a spreadsheet, AND is required by those being lead to know that their work matters, and that their efforts are being noticed.
Photo-op Follow-up ...
So, last week, before they took a VaCa @ the public expense, Mrs. Omaba was in the Gulf region for a Photo-op ... and I'm sure she didn't fly coach !!!
Is she included in the "Walking Around" management style, because I don't understand how the Gulf has anything to do with child obesity, her pet programme ...
In the greater scheme of things, now that the leak seems to be contained, let's see just who is putting their $$$ where their mouth is !!! The clean-up, remediation, and restoration needs to be accomplished in a way that proves what the greatest nation on the face of God's Green Earth can do !!!
Follow-op up
Good thing you weren't alive while Eleanor Roosevelt was the first lady, your head would have exploded.Speaking on behalf of Entropy. You cannot put the Genie back in the bottle. Mechanical restoration of the Gulf is not possible. We can do our best, and then hand it off to nature to finish the job, in hope that nature doesn't choke on it. Think decades, (or never), and not months and you won't be too disappointed.
Channeling Eleanor ...
... was last tried by Hillary and her "village" ... but you make a good point since today we are more comfortable with First Ladies compartmentalizing their responsibilities, so when one steps outside the box she is conspicuous ... but please don't confuse that with competent ...
I agree with you totally that it might take generations for the environmental impact of this disaster to be remediated ... I would hope that the economic impact would take a lesser amount of time !!!
Smokin' Funny Stuff.
Just what would you have the leader or his wife do ? I don't care for her but she is Obama's wife and can help with many issues. Why don't you and your self proclaimed genuises write the job description for how a president and his wife should act .Both styles mentioned above work to one extent or another. Do you think the president has a flat lined organization ? You are in there with Cheech and Chong if you answered yes. My guess is unless he personally has to sign and approve he is relying on a huge infrastructure just like they all have had.You look at organizations with four layers and complain about communication , my God man give him a break. He has a staff who has a staff and so on and so on. There are at least two hundred layers of management in government all following protocol. I know the answer just have everyone report to him.I will send you the cuckoo clock soon.
Therein Lies the Problem
Your description of government could be used in the Urban Dictionary to validly describe "Bureaucracy" ... that does not make it efficient, nor effective ...
Suggestions ?
So how would you go about fixing what you think is a problem ? I personally think you are a chronic complainer with nothing but negatives when it comes to anything outside of your expertise. You suggest a dictatorship or what ? Typical blogger who can only compalin with no clear cut answers .YOU are what is wrong with our country. All by yourself amigo.The government because of it's size functions better than you could think or plan it yourself.
Do you not believe ...
... that Washington is broken and leaking wasted tax dollars ???
For the record I take specific umbrage @ your depiction of me ... I think you know be better than that !!!
I am not a big government person ...
- I believe that our government is much too large and needs to be trimmed back by something as simple and equitable as a Flat Tax, which would require the government to grow the economy to grow the Federal Government ...
- I believe that if you pay your Flat Tax, you should be given guaranteed Health Care ... - I believe that Term Limits must be enacted to eliminate career politicians ...
- I believe in Issue & Referendum votes whenever our Government needs to make a decision that substantially affects our pocketbooks ...
- I believe that the "Election Season" ought to be confined to a three (3) month period and each candidate held to a flat budget of spending, each equal unto the other ...
- I believe that Union Dues should be confined to being spent on nothing outside the local's immediate job situation and not candidates, causes, or lobbyists ...
I won't bore you with more, but there is more, so a "... typical blogger ..." ??? I think not !!!
Are you sure.........
because it seems to me you like big government when it's doing things YOU WANT!
What we need is an more educated public that would take more interest in this country than Reality T.V. shows.
Easy Now ...
Sorry I missed this, so here goes:
1. I am NOT a "Big Government" advocate ... I believe that we have forgotten that we are a Representative Republic and that our elected officials go to Washington as a career and not to represent us !!!
2. I also believe in "Issue and Referendum" on major issues ... I could try and explain it to you, but it would take too much space, so simply said, it would replace most of the partisan bickering on issues which clearly have merit to the public in their eyes !!! For instance, the Arizona issue ... Arizona and a reportedly twenty (20) other states agree, so why is it that the Justice Department - who are not elected Officials - are doing something which the people ... you know - you and me ... disagree with ... just like Gitmo !!!
3. I believe that from the day an Official (especially Congressmen) gets elected, he/she begins to campaign for re-election ... term limits would severely change that ...
4. I like the British style where the "election season" is limited and thereby so is the amount of $$$ spent !!! That's the true crime !!! Money spent on months and months of campaigning could be better spent on the true ills of the world, not "getting your message out" !!! If you can't do it in a short period of time, your message might be baloney !!!
5. I do not think that Unions have the right to lobby candidates with dues $$$ ... in New Jersey, the Teacher's Union spent MILLIONS to defeat the present Governor ... that's MILLIONS wasted !!!
6. Remember, without "term limits" "BJ Clinton" could inflict himself on us once again ...
Couple Comments
2) The constitution is not interpreted by popular vote. The Justice Department is one of many entities which could bring suit when in its judgment a law is unconstitutional. Nothing has happened until a judge rules, and this is how the system works when its working.
In most circumstances, government by referendum is insanity. Whatever you gain in independent thinking is lost in issue ignorance. This was corrected by your first item #1 (representative government)
6) I remember that guy. Those were dark days indeed. A balanced budget, peace, and so much money in the mattress it was difficult to get a night's sleep. I never want to go back to that.
You are ...
... correct, as usual that my #1 and #2 are in theoretical conflict ... my point is that the Justice Department is not elected and therefore beholding to no one ... and this present Justice Department, led by Eric Holder (a very notable hold-over from the "Billary Clinton" administration) has now inflicted their convoluted sense of morality twice ... regarding Gitmo and now Arizona !!!
Where is the voice of the people of Arizona ??? Where might the voice of the other reported twenty (20) other states be ??? If Holder filed suits against all of them it might be tantamount to a Civil War in the Courts !!!
"Issue and Referendum" would allow states rights to be enforced ... by the states ... not by Big Brother Eric Holder and his obviously skewed idea of what is moral ...
Instead of denying states rights, why not use the $$$ and efforts to attack some of the more important issues we have before us as a country without demonizing a state which wishes to protect itself !!!
Do Ends Justify Means?
The states do not have rights which are contrary to the constitution. The judiciary decides what is and what is not constitutional. The Justice Department would be simply moving paper around if the judiciary concludes that the Arizona law is unconstitutional. If the law is overturned, you are complaints are 100% mis-targeted. If not the Justice Department then someone else will bring suit. This type of law CANNOT exist without first being tested in the courts. FULL STOP.
I'm amused by your reference to the Civil War. I really hope you meant the humor.
This is a test of constitutionality not morality. If the courts find the law constitutional, then some people may say the law is immoral, but it's still constitutional. As the courts have already set aside significant parts of the law in advance of any trial, it seems to us that the courts are signaling that there is a better than 0 chance that the signifant parts of the stature will not survive. Meaning that these parts would be unconstitutional.
Gitmo requires so many liberal interpretations of the constitution, that it's a bit breath taking. It is the "*" and the "with the exception of" in all future Civics classrooms. You would think that the Justice Department has a dog in that fight.
Glad ...
... you got my tongue-in-cheek attempt @ humour ... and I'm glad you understood it was just trying to be funny !!!
As a corollary to this Arizona topic is the interesting talk about amending the 14th Amendment, which makes anyone born on American soil an American ...
This whole thing is not over ... and we need a true statesman to emerge and address the whole immigration issue, unfortunately, I don't have the name of someone @ the tip of my tongue ... and a "Special Master" is not the answer because, right now, he's a little overworked !!!
You are correct, if, in the future, they still have Civics Classes, Gitmo will be a great topic for some college theses !!! The big argument will be why we should be bringing criminals stateside, while we can do things more effectively and efficiently @ Gitmo without risking national security ...
And ????
What is your point Mr. Bob ? Can't take the heat ? Come on. Term limits have not worked any better in California than career politicians and in some cases term limits took out some good people and it has hurt. Where would you trim the budget and government ?Flat Tax ? Yes. Some of your other comments border on control and censorship. But as long as it is for the "public " good that is ok with you ? I must be bored to bait you. Sorry ,best to see you scream in the blog. So , how are appliance sales in your area ?
I just guess ...
... you are a "status quo" type of person ... and that's your privilege ...
Like I said, I'm for responsibility !!!
Frustrated
Me thinks you are just a frustrated individual polishing and cleaning your guns at the thought of a democratic idealistic invasion !!!! Watch the borders , watch the giveaways. Go back to the days of cut taxes for the rich , it sure has helped this current economy huh Bob ? All those business tax breaks. Where's the beef ?
Off Base
I am for change but just not for the sake of change. I don't shoot from the hip and criticize and cry for change just to do it.You should have some reason. You just can't say "reasonable" or "responsibility" and think that a mature , intelligent individual is going to swallow that koolaid.Like some of the republican ideas those words have no meaning without substance.
Well, Apparently ...
... you and I are light years apart when it comes to ideologies ... I'll bet it would be apparent by the contrast in voting patterns ... you DO vote, don't you ???
I'm positive you and I did not vote even closely similar in the last election ...
Wow.
When did you stop beating your wife ? Don't ask me such a parochial and leading question. Of course I vote and I earned the right some time ago by defending that right turbo.I am proud to say I probably did not vote as you did . Did you always have voting rights ? Speaking of light years I suspected you belonged to the space cadet club.You are a good man.
I'm glad ...
... you find this to be an opportunity to vent ... I was hoping, sometime, we'd get back on topic, as opposed to your trying to exorcise your version of witty repartee' ...
Yes Sir
Well then , how is business and do you think Wolf will remain a player in the cooking side iof the business as a design leader ? Don't bring up politics. That is an order !
I am heartened ...
... by seeing Capital getting themselves in the forefront of television exposure, having been able to spot their products on Food Network's "Next Network Star" & "Chopped" ... displacing others !!!
Getting your products on television has become the toehold amongst the "foodies" and people who are impressed with what their favourites are cooking on ... To those who do not actively watch such programming, this might sound insignificant, even laughable, but it is a readily identifiable demographic ... and ... since Pro-Style is such a diminutive aspect of the market in today's economy, any toehold is something to be thankful for ...
... and to answer your question about Wolf, red knobs or no red knobs, the only exposure I have seen of their name is on PGA Tour golfer Jerry Kelly ... they otherwise have no television exposure on any cooking, design, or other television genre that I am aware of !!!
Bermuda Bob and the Locker Room
Appreciate your willingness on the humor side of things. As for Capital , Surjit is really doing another great job with the product. Timing of the economic issues will not let him quite repeat the rapid financial growth he had at DCS though. As for the television exposure. You do know that companies that put their products on TV do pay a hefty fee annually for that privilege. So those in the know probably are not that impressed with that,however it is better than a stick in the eye.Wolf I understand paid Kelly seven figures to wear that emblem. Not a very good investment. I think SZ is finding out that the brand names are very valuable and perhaps the Sub Zero refrigeration name cannot alone carry the cooking side to a higher level of success. Either way I am hearing of a slight uptick in the commercial end of the business but the consumer product high end is still pretty much in a deep recession.I understand that Dacor and others have had production adjustments in the plant with sporadic shutdowns for several weeks. Not good.
I know about fees ...
... paid to these TV shows to have their products there, but it does demonstrate a willingness on their part to do something positive to promote their brand ... and in the case of Capital, you couldn't ask for better representation than ALMO, who put DCS on the map for Serjit !!!
The best part is that Capital's products are worthy of being a leader in the Pro-Style category and leaving people like DCS and others in the dust of their own self-worth !!! I say that as a former aficionado of the DCS line, but since being taken over by F&P, they are simply treading water in this market !!!
Sub & Wolf suffer from the immediate assumption that their products are unattainable which a well-trained sales associate could use to their advantage to sell the plethora of other products which might suit the needs of that potential customer more succinctly !!!
Comment Bermuda Bob.
Spell Surjit . Since I have intimate knowledge of Surjit's products and other manufacturers I will agree that from a manufacturing and engineering / performance perspective his was the closest to what you would call commercial performance. He also understood the market better since he worked in the commercial industry. He took a company from zero to $92 million annually. Not to downgrade anyone else's performance but that is tough to argue with or beat.Almo is one of the best and they have made and will continue to make a very good team. I have a great amount of respect for Mr. Kalsi. Wolf I think went out and hired people not directly from the high end market and that may have hurt the long term impact they will make in the cooking end , not to mention all the money they spent on the Taj Mahal. F&P or the investors who purchased DCS had no idea what type of product they had. The investors are very good people. F&P was full of themselves as one would think of a foreign organization thinking Americans think wrong.
Nothing ...
... to disagree with you on there, Mate !!!
Shucks...
And all I wanted was to argue Bob!!
It was ...
... inevitable that sooner or later we'd be in total agreement on something ... don't fight it ... it's great for the blood pressure !!!!
Hee-Hee-Hee !!!
You Are .....
Correcto mundo !!!
Management Style is ...
... differing from leader to leader, and while I've tried to give Obama as much slack as possible, his management style escapes me !!! He has all sorts of leadership who he could assign to be the face of the Gulf @ his beck and call, but he does it himself, and quite ineffectively at that !!! That's why his ###'s are so down !!!
The problem in the Gulf is plain and simple ...
(1) Too late to act ...
(2) Too little action ...
(3) No "face of the action" ...
(4) Too much "tough guy" routine ...
(5) Too much emphasis on Academics and not the "dirty fingernails" type ...
Sorry, he may be our President, but he has fouled this whole matter up, 2nd only the Katrina mess of GW, but if he doesn't get that guy/gal who can be in the Gulf until this matter is remediated, he will surpass GW's public discontent level !!!
Plain& Simple
Bob ..... You're right, the problem is the gulf is plain and simple. BP drilled a well 1 mile deep without any plan for recovery if things went wrong. BP was sucking oil out of the gulf WITHOUT disaster recovery procedures long before Obama got his first peek at the Oval Office. What more can he do now other than make sure BP is held accountible for the damages and insure that other oil companies don't follw in BP's careless (stupid) footsteps?
You must be a salesman since
You must be a salesman since you have your facts wrong. Actually it was the Obama admin that approved this site(the only one I believe-pretty good record) and passed on alot of violations. Wonder why that is. Couldn't be all the $ he got from them now could it. The sooner this socialist bastard disappears the better off we all will be.
so you're saying
This spill would not have happened if a conservative or republican was president? I am just trying to be clear. BTW have you looked at a real socialist? It is a pretty good stretch to get there from where the president is sitting...
The REAL Problem is ...
... in the response !!! My point is clear ... the spill would have occurred under any administration because neither party was worried one bit about regulation, inspection, or compliance !!!
So, then ...
... what, may I ask, are YOU doing to make that happen ???
I usually follow up this question with another ... that being: "For whom did you vote for in the last Presidential Election ???"
The answers to those two (2) questions usually reveal plenty ...
OK Back in the office
Bob: Your 5 points are all PR points. Your complaint seems more related to style than substance. My complaints are style points as well. What he can actually do.........well what can he actually do? The Jones Act complaint seems to be a crock. The refused donated help seems to be a crock. He did extort $20 billion from BP which was brilliant.
Complaints about Bush and Katrina focus on the PR of flying overhead, while the real "crimes" of substance were committed years before. The hollowing out of FEMA by Bush, and the lame construction of dikes over decades and a dozen administrations. (yes....not a crime, just not so nice).
The real "crimes" of substance in the Gulf are a joint venture between federal and state governments and industry. Incompetence and deregulation and sex and drugs......... if the red hot news stories are correct.
The problems were years in the making and included Obama. Not because he made it worse, but because he did not make it better. Should he get a pass because his mind was on what he thought were larger issues than the Office of Minerals and Mining? No......he's president. Should he get a pass because he accepted off shore drilling to get Republicans to sign on to an energy policy? No......you plays the game, you takes your chances.
So don't give him a pass....fine....but why do you guys think it's easier to re-organize the federal government, than the corner Dairy Queen? Stuff takes time.
Paulh: Don't be so anti-social.......ism. No really, name the non-socialist presidents since 1900 and win a cupie doll. Good luck with that.