Professional Ranges
Submitted by ApplianceGuy on Mon, 04/26/2010 - 1:10am.
Question for the forum. I just had a chance to see and check out the BlueStar Range, and well im amazed. This thing is a tank with chef class features. I mean after seeing this product why consider wolf, viking ect? the 36 and 48" ranges are amazingly priced for the build they offered and totally out performed its competitors.
I also see it all over youtube now.
anyways back to trolling the net... have a great day!
Pro vs Pro Style
BBob you may be the one to help me out on this one. There are, generally, 2 ways range manufacturers promote their simmer prowess. 1 is BTU output per hour. The other is temperature. I understand the BTU concept the only argument there is do they cycle on off, Is it all in one small area etc. The temperature thing, to me, is alot more gray. What does 140degree simmer mean. Is it a 4 qt sauce pan with 2 qts of liquid at 140 deg. Is it 1 cup of liquid in a 1 qt sauce pan being held at 140? Most any burner can hold a liquid at 140 degrees if the size of the pot or pan and its contents are of the correct volume. So I gues the question is what are the criteria for rating a "simmer" at a particular temperature. A BTU is a btu no matter the amount of liquid in the pot or the type of pot. Help me out.
Pro vs ProStyle
Your question is an ideal opportunity to explain the difference between home versions of Professional cooking products and "ProStyle" cooking products ...
As an accomplished home chef I'd say that each is designed for the consumer who knows what todo with them ...
The Blue Star range utilizes burners which are designed for the very high heat which chefs want for a variety of cooking techniques ... The home cook who is interested in these ranges had better have the abilities to go along, or they will be wasting time and $$$ ...
The ProStyle ranges offered by Capital, Thermador, Viking, or Wolf all have different variations of professional style burners from high heat for wok cooking to very low "simmer" burners ... here's a quick overview from my experience with all of them ...
Capital is the only manufacturer who still offers a Simmer Burner on all burners, which means, the manufacturer has not decided where YOU put your pots and all burners are the round !!! A true Simmer Burner is one which produces a constant 140 degrees and is a wonderful feature when preparing fragile sauces, or keeping dishes warm for guests while you get ready to welcome them for you culinary delights !!!
Thermador is the manufacturer of the "Star" burner, which is designed to mimic the burners on professional ranges but @ different sizes ... They are the only manufacturer with a burner that is not the traditional round type. Their version of a simmer burner is an "ExtraLow" setting on only two (2) burners which does not produce a constant temperature, but rather turns itself on and off @ intervals the chef sets, and, of course, you will know it's working by the snapping of the electronic igniter ...
Viking, very simply, does not offer a formal "simmer burner" ... their VeriSimmer is simply achieved by turning the burner all the way down, so it is essentially a very low, well, low !!! Unfortunately, they do not formally declare what the temperature is @ low-low !!!
Wolf has a conventional and traditional approach to their burner array, which usually frustrates today's serious home chef. They place their burners where they want, and the consumer has no choice. Their "simmer burner" is rated @ 500 BTU's which is a different way of defining it and quite frustrating because there is no simple conversion from BTU's to degrees F. So, the consumer is @ the mercy of the representative they speak with.
All in all, my suggestion is to know what you want, what you need, why you need it, and how often you will use it when it comes to features ... In all honesty, there are consumers who put ProStyle ranges in their homes to maintain value, but if you are serious enough to be attracted to a Blue Star, then you should look at the offerings here ...
FYI: I did not compare the Ovens because the original question did not ask about it and it would have doubled the length of this response !!!
I'm always happy to answer questions !!!
Pro vs prostyle
Thermador is the manufacturer of the "Star" burner, which is designed to mimic the burners on professional ranges but @ different sizes ...
** Correct in your statement for this brand they mimic, they did not innovate hence are a copy.
They are the only manufacturer with a burner that is not the traditional round type.
** Wrong, Bluestar has a cast burner head custom in the shape of a star, hence the name Bluestar with the only direct flame up the middle, all others are sealed cap in flavor. Combine wide range of high heat with low heat and direct flame under the cookware you get an amazing result hence the same as commercial. As a chef you would appreciate this design.
Their version of a simmer burner is an "ExtraLow" setting on only two (2) burners which does not produce a constant temperature, but rather turns itself on and off @ intervals the chef sets, and, of course, you will know it's working by the snapping of the electronic igniter ...
** snap snap, ** haha i love that...
Now, Bluestar is not a pretty as some, yet is very commercial in feel and your correct in saying its aggresive in style and build and better be aware when using 22k worth of heat. Just dont complain, when your wok cooking steams your food on a 15k burner and also when your low simmer steams your sauce. 130 deg ultra low simmer as any chef knows is very nice. Simmer - as taught in cooking school is slow movement of fluid at low temp. Bluestar achieves its biggest success via a DIRECT FLAME no messing with any style of sealed cap style burner.
Who Needs Pro ...
... or even ProStyle ?!?!? Certainly not the average home chef, regardless of how accomplished he/she is, but the average purchase will also go to "glitz" & "glam" so ProStyle will win !!!
Glad you liked the "click-on, click-off" ... I had a client once who said it would drive her mad, but then she also nixed a certain wall over because of it's interior colour !!!
When I had mine, it was almost a "safety blanket" telling me it was working that I tuned into with my "other ear" but I did not like the manufacturer selection my pot distribution or only two (2) ExtraLow burners ...
The Burning Truth
Natural gas burns at a temperature > 3000 F. The marketing of DCS is for a 140F simmer burner. Evidently Blue Star markets a 130F burner. This would, one imagines be the temperature of the food cooked on a pot over a 3000F flame of a certain size. ApplianceGuy says the size is 500 BTU for Blue Star.
The temperature of the food would depend on the volume of food, and the radiation of the heat. You would have to know how much food and all about the pot to say the food is going to be 130F
Bottom Line: Selling a burner as a 140F or a 130F degree simmer is horse huey.....more or less. It makes no technical sense. It's a lie. They are lying to you.
The theory of the cycling XLO burner is that there is a minimum flame size which can be safely burned without blowing out. Thermador's XLO allows a BTU/minute below this safe level by burning the minimum safe flame size for this burner for parts of minutes. It also has the added benefit of reducing the risk of food burn by allowing the food to cool the hot spot during the "off". Cycling flames are superior to a standard continuing flame, except for the click.
The last word in simmer burners was from Caldera. It had a cycling burner, but instead of a spark igniter used a glow plug, silently igniting the flame with each cycle.
See the Youtube video
Nay & Fore-soothe !!!
I beg to differ Kimosabe ... 140 degrees is the generally accepted temperature when most dangerous bacteria die ... I would not trust a burner sold as 130 degree - we educate ourselves for use in the real world just for this purpose !!!
From personal experience, I've purposely kept sauces from Alfredo to Bechamel for more than an hour on a 140 "simmer burner" ... and by "kept" I mean without forming a "skin" ...
You are correct about the XLO, because when I had mine and tried the same experiments they "skinned over" which I did not like ...
I've also left 18 quarts of soups, tomato sauce, and even used the 140 degree "simmer burner" as a "crock-pot" ... all overnight !!!
The best part of all this is, however, that this lonely testor had to eat the spoils ... and neither got me sick, either !!!
Simmer Glimmer
Simmer Down Stallion
Stallion .... nice hearing from you again.
Most cooks I've known have described simmer as "cooking just at or below the boiling point". Water at standard pressure boils at 100 degrees C or 212 F. Other liquids boil at different temperatures. Of course all liquids boil at different temperatures at different elevations due to the change in atmospheric pressure. And, the heat requirred to bring a liquid in a cooking vessel to boiling point will depend upon the material of the vessel and the amount of liquid.
So how do you equate 140 degrees to simmering? 140 degrees is the generally accepted temperature at which food can remain relatively bacteria free. But keeping food free of bacteria is not simmering. Simmering is maintaining a temperature just below boiling, which of course will require different BTUs under varying circumstances.
The Thermador XLO burner offers the cook different temperature options due to the selection of cycle times available in the XLO setting. The cook "adjusts" the XLO burner to the proper output to hold "simmer" which is rarely if ever 140 degrees.
Try the Legal Angle.
Cohiba , I can understand your acceptance of the annoying on / off feature of Thermador's. Although a very good company they got it wrong with this one. BB and I agree and if someone really had food poisoning or was critically ill from food preperation , the last "experts" they would call would be sales people. I created a cooktop that simmered at about 2,200 BTU's and could melt chocolate and keep it warm and flowing for hours on end. My point is don't believe 500 BTU's will simmer well, it will not . Good to be back. How are you doing ?
BTU's vs. Degrees "F" ...
I have always had a suspicion about a manufacturer who seemingly and purposely uses terms which no one understands !!! As you noticed, I explained in another post here, that I did some serious (and calorie laden) "experiments" ... so, in my mind if they do not claim temperature in Fahrenheit then they are playing games !!!
Correct
That is why we always attempt to measure in temperatures. It is the sales floor people who want the BTU wars. It does not matter where you work as far as the manufacturer is concerned. We all know the right measurement.The sales floor always has wanted to brag about low BTU output for simmer. Which is impossible if you want safe and great simmer performance.My comment about 2,200BTU's was meant as a purpose to that end.The simmer was fine and the temps approached 150 degrees. It also matters how far the grates are from the surface of the flame. The further away up to a point , the more efficient the burn or simmer. That would take too much explaining for the sales floor.
Excellent Points !!!
Stallion, you make some excellent observations which anyone who is serious about their job will point out to customers ...
1. In this day and age when Internet savvy people are coming into your location armed with copies of all sorts of information, it is (in my opinion) wrong to try and confuse people with BTU's vs. Degrees "F" ... Even the most intelligent of customers will not have a conversion @ the tip of their tongue !!! Being able to explain that 140 BTU's is the minimum safest temperature to maintain should be plenty !!!
2. I think the use of the term "Simmer" is somewhat misleading ... "Simmer" is defined by Oxford as " ... to stay just below the boiling point while being heated ..." so the 140 degree "standard" is technically quite incorrect !!! "Simmering" and "Sauteing" are considered to be just on opposite sides of the "Boiling Point" even though water might not be involved ...
So, do we have a better term to describe these burners who are used to maintain temperature as opposed to actually cooks something ???
It's an interesting conundrum !!!
3. The 150 degree idea would more accurately be considered for "Poaching" which is commonly accepted as being between 165 & 185 degrees !!!
I guess it ain't what it is ... it's what you call it ... and people accept, eh ???
How many times have you heard a woman refer to a group of women as "guys" ... and no one asking her to " ... look again ..." as I do ???
some more for yea
Being able to explain that 140 BTU's is the minimum safest temperature to maintain should be plenty !!!
I disagree with this bob... 140 deg i assume you mean is not the minimum safest. It has to do with many factors i agree. On that note, bluestar has achieved this with its burner head style, hence the 130 deg posting. The burner head is btu at 500 btu. and heat tested to produce 130 deg at the source. I agree that height and other factors do apply.
If you are considering a Pro Range? what is your consideration for Pro range? pro can be defined by many things... design, performance ect. There will always be a need for better than common, hence a professional product.
Bluestar simply put has DIRECT FLAME hence why its so popular... i would love for anybody to explain the values on how good or better a sealed cap system is vs a direct flame.
Oh and for the folks that say Pro is dead? i beg to differ. There is always a place for Pros.
Heck... call up Jay Leno and call him crazy for buying a Mclearen f1 and then explain his bike (pedal or motor) would be better. dont stop there call porsche and say your days are numbered nobody buys those. heck call mercedes while your at it and tell them they build over priced cars and why?
Wow dont stop there... you can live in a trailer (maybe you do) vs living in a 10,000sqft home on the beach.
Agree but Disagree ???
Hey Mate !!!I don't understand your comment about 140 degrees, but to clarify, 140 is the temperature @ which the majority of "bad" bacteria die ... and it must be maintained and not fluctuated ...
130 degrees does not accomplish this ...
Neither ProStyle or "HomePro" are dead ... for the reasons I stated ... I just would not want to have my whole income depend on high end !!!
Let's See.
500 BTU's will not sustain the required temperature and will crawl too much when doors are opened ,people walk by, etc.The food in the center needs to maintain 140 degrees. Pro Range..... A real Professional Range is a nomenclature that people equate to a commercial grade range and it's performance and durability to the consumer is perceived as close to that. As we know different agency rules and safety rules apply. The burners are open flame and although the BTU's are high the efficiency is not as high but it is perception. Heat safety rules and flame control rules are quite different. So my explanation is that a pro range gives the appearance of high durability(well built) and gives some added horsepower with style.I thought both Thermador and DCS got it pretty close to that perception with THD having a little more style. Sealed burner is easier to clean.The open burner for simmering is much better and real. They must have gotten it right. What say the marketing gods ? My input would be BlueStar could sell that and tell a good story. There will always be a market for Pro Ranges. Just not as big a market unless the middle class can buy up through credit. Real simple.
Drinking?
What are you drinking today ? Send me some please. The point is keep your food hot while you stir and cook the taste in. Poaching ? I will poach you. Someday someone will display you in a museum. The only smart salesman from the 21st century.I am simmering to the boiling point !!!!
Not a Chance ...
Stallion, you may have missed my missive about how I spent my summer last year ... Advisor was quite nice to indulge my article ... unfortunately I could not go far enough back into the archives ...
I was trying to link the " ... smart salesman ..." you speak of ... to the products they need to sell ... to the informed customers, who, if they are going to spend the kind of $$$ ProStyle costs, should understand the appliance !!!
The "simmering" " sauteing" & "poaching" is possibly akin to the old joke about driving on a parkway and parking in a driveway !!!
Your Well Founded Humor
I enjoyed your responses. Full of good humor or humour as you may say. But done with a large portion of intelligence. Keep up the good stuff.Your drinking exploits probably pickled you for the simmer errr summer.
Crazy
I always park in a driveway,anyone knows that . Do not try to confuse me with the facts. The parkways where I grew up were a nice place to take a quiet ride through the park. Don't poach my ideas...errrrrr