Almo Appliances

CORRECTION: Whirlpool EXACTLY as Green as Claimed: UPDATED

This is a correction to a story that ran here September 28 (bottom of this report).
Though the US Chamber of Commerce may still tout Whirlpool's participation in its organization, Whirlpool confirmed to us today that it canceled its membership in the organization "more than a year ago".  Whirlpool's response:

Whirlpool Corporation ended its membership with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce more than a year ago.  We chose to discontinue our membership for a variety of reasons, including the value of the membership to our organization.  

Whirlpool belongs to a number of trade associations at the national, state and local level.  We do not always agree with the positions taken by these trade associations and we regularly communicate our specific position on a wide range of issues and policies.

Nearly 40 years ago, Whirlpool established a corporate office for environmental control and, in 2003, Whirlpool became the world's first appliance manufacturer to announce a global greenhouse gas reduction target.  Recently, the company announced that by 2015, it will make all the electronically controlled appliances it produces -- everywhere in the world -- capable of receiving and responding to signals from smart grids.

Regards,

Jody
MANAGER, CORPORATE RESPONSIBILITY COMMUNICATIONS
Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail

We at ApplianceAdvisor.com sincerely apologize to Whirlpool for our error.  In the case of Whirlpool, (not the other brands listed below), we made the mistake of relying on what must have been older marketing materials from the Chamber and not a current membership directory. 
As for Whirlpool's green bona fides, we have been and remain highly impressed with the energy, focus and leadership that Whirlpool has brought to the industry on this issue.  It is being felt.  We also appreciate Whirlpool's position that, like marriage, we can't all agree with all the positions of the organizations who represent us, though in the case of Global Warming, we feel there can't be a compromise position.

While we have this momentary channel of communications, we have 4 questions we hope you will be able to answer:
1)  Does Whirlpool have a position on Climate Change as being primarily of "man made" or "natural" causes? 
2)  As the largest appliance manufacturer in the US (and the World), what is Whirlpool doing to lead and accelerate the development of appliance efficiency standards in the United States?
3)  As the largest appliance manufacturer in the US (and the World), what is Whirlpool doing to correct the many problems with the Energy Star certification system?
4)  There is a market for much more efficient refrigerators and freezers than are available in the North American market, though they are available overseas.  Are you considering bringing these more efficient units to the US


ORIGINAL UNCORRECTED STORY SEPTEMBER 28 FOLLOWS:
Whirlpool was named 78th most green company in America by Newsweek's Green Rankings, yet it supports one of the strongest lobbies in Washington fighting against climate change legislation.  Does Whirlpool's lobby jive with CEO Jeff Fettig's comment:  “Recognition like this is only possible because of the people at Whirlpool who make our long-term commitment to sustainability a reality.”  This section concerning Whirlpool is in error....see correction at top.

Sub-Zero and Viking, brag of their green bona fides (how we'll never know) but they too support the lobby against climate change legislation.

VIKING CORRECTION Nov 4, 2009: 
VIKING STATEMENT:  "Viking is not currently a member of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, nor have we been a member for many years."
AA Comment:  Viking is a prominent member of the local Greenwood-Leflore County Chamber of Commerce, which intern is a member of the Mississippi Economic Council, which intern is a member organization of the US Chamber of Commerce.  We are inquiring further into the relation of the field and HQ chamber offices.

Fisher & Paykel, has long marketed its products emphasizing efficiency.  Fisher & Paykel remains a member.

General Electric, with aggressive green marketing, remains a member, though has joined the competing green lobbying efforts of the US Climate Action Partnership which includes over 25 major manufacturers and utilities.

What nefarious organization are all these appliance manufacturers affiliated with?  The Chamber of Commerce.  (Chamber's position)

It is being reporting that major corporations are criticizing the Chamber or canceling their membership based on the Chamber's stand against all climate legislation.  Yet for our industry, it's business as usual.
Bloomberg

WSJ (the comments section is interesting.  who knew WSJ readers were so enlightened?)

Washington Post (anti - climate legislation ad campaigns)

NOTE:  We also attempted to confirm memberships for BSH, Electrolux, ASKO, LG, Haier but were unable to.  (maybe they are...maybe they aren't)

Updated Sept 29, 2009:  New Times Editorial "Way Behind the Curve"

Comments Closed

Lots of interesting and unrelated comments under this heading......3 pages worth.
It's just too difficult to follow.  This page is now closed to comments.
For subjects that you wish to continue onward, please open a FORUM page, and include links to the applicable comments if you like

Peace and Love

REPEATED FOR YOUR READING CONVENIENCE FROM PAGE 2 OF THE COMMENTS
It's time to get back to appliances, since the readership is both bored and baffled.  Last Call.

Yes religion is once more bringing us all together...........
As a unqualified outsider, religion-wise, would anyone mind if I stick my toe in this mud puddle?

Religion, like your race, your country, your face, and your family is something that you are born to and equal parts fun and pointless to debate.  Should we really be asking people to seriously defend the Inquisition, or a television evangelist’s prostitution hobby, faux cannibalism at church, the religious basis for slavery, strange dietary habits, or inexplicable undergarments?  Should they need to prove the factual basis of their fantastic foundation texts, the sordid history, or my personal favorite, biblical crimes?  Just step 10 feet back from any religion, and they all look looney, (yes and I mean your religion too) but it is the wonder and the plasticity of the mind that it all makes perfect sense to card carrying members.

If ever there was a place for, “it is what it is”, this is it. People are free in this country in their heads, their beds, their homes and their pants, free to worship or not as they see fit. Serious questions should be asked and serious answers should be expected only when belief breaks out of those 4 dimensions and becomes the basis for how the rest of us live our lives. Short of that, we can probably lower the weaponry a bit, and just take heart that everyone else is headed for eternal damnation, or the perpetual unpleasantness of your choice............or at least that’s what I’ve been told.

How about those Dishwashers? Crazy huh?

Whew !!!

Thank God for that !!!  What started as a viable discussion descended into something akin to The Stix ...

Personally, I've never had reason to not spec K/A DishWashers ... and ... with their increased exposure on TV, I'm sure the client might actually be aware of them !!! 

Advisor

Dishwashers.  Which ones are the best and did Dacor fix their problems ? I have friends who want to buy a Dacor but I am cautious on the DW. What say you !!!!

Advisor

You're right. There's no room for a religious discussion on this blog. I will not respond unless it involves an opinion regarding the appliance industry.

Chamber of Commerce Pranked !!!

For those of you who'd like a bit of relevant humour with a bit of fitting message mixed in, check out this report from CNN yesterday ...

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/10/20/nr.bichlbaum.chamber.prank.cnn?iref=24hours

Pranked

Bob, I saw this. I thought it was funny. The media was the big loser here I think. It is amazing how many ran with this before fact checking. Dewey defeats Truman!

Fixed it in weeks......?

I keep hearing how Bush took years to destroy our relationship with other nations but Obama fixed it in weeks. Can someone PLEASE give me a list of nations who Obama repaired our relationships with? Iran? I think not. North Korea? doubt it.  Relax already dram and have some respect for Stallion, after all, he did vote for your guy that "fixes everything" in weeks just by showing up, smiling and reading his well written speaches. I didn't vote for him. And I am not a Republican, I am not a member of the NRA. I simply paid attention to the facts and new something wasn't right with this guy. Too many questionable aquaintances, lived his whole life without holding a real job that wasn't somehow paid by taxpayers. Now, more and more people, like Stallion, are seeing where they went wrong. Most of us were tired of the Bush years, although I must say he started out well. It was years before he started making bad decisions and spending money like a drunken sailor (OK, didn't spend it like Obama, but you get the point). Everyone needs to step back and actually look at what is going on with an open mind. Forget what you hear in the media. Dig into things on your own. Our countries future depends on it.

Bias for Talk. ObamaNation

George Will said it best on Sunday " This administration is one of presentation not of action" Pretty well spoken. If any of you think we can negotiate with the terrorists you might as well move over there and join them. Their's is only one way and that is death to Israel and Christians as they put it.You athiests,not sure they will like you either. This president lacks the gut to be a leader and make tough decisions. Looks like he will make decisions based on people's biases. Not leadership material.His responsibility is to America first...period. Dram that goes for you too.Whether you are a veteran or not that does not make you an expert. I know some dummies who were in the military and not qualified to bake a cake.

Dude

I was referring to damaged or at least "chilly" relationships with our own allies. These are the same nations who went to war as our allies in Afghanistan. These are Germany, France, Poland, Italy, Spain and many more. After 9/11, they were ready to fight along side the US, but when they cautioned against a war in Iraq, they became the anti-Christ. You don't have to go far, our Canadian neighbors to the north echo the same sentiments...And for North Korea and Iran, I'll take my chances with Obama. Anyone can go to war, but can everyone use diplomacy? We know Bush can't...

Yeah DUUUUUDE!

Apple Computer Resigns from US Chamber of Commerce

Apple Computer canceled its membership in the US Chamber of Commerce because of the chambers continued efforts to thwart green house gas regulation.
One would have to assume that Apple Computer's moves are based on their belief that "Climate Change" / "Global Warming" is a man made process.
Story

Right on !!!

As an admitted Apple junkie, I'm pleased that they are as environmentally conscious as described !!!

I firmly believe that we all need to be as environmentally aware as possible, be it from simple home recycling, conservation, and personal purchase choices, to the roles we play in our business world ... my reasoning is that I do not believe that we can, nor will, ever be able to be free of some of the products detrimental to our environment, so efforts to minimize that affect can be offset by otherwise cogent conduct ...

It is high time we consider what we are leaving to our future generations ... and it is incumbent on us to leave it better than we found it !!! 

Man Made

When will some of you tree huggers give up and understand that the changes in the earth's climate are bigger than we are. This has been cyclical for millions of years and will not change. The effort is an execise in controlling what people do very simply. It is the less fortunate who are jealous of what others do and have. Me , I live my life and don't much less care if someone takes a private jet or not.

Interesting.....

It is interesting that we must agree with the fringe that push the global warming thing or be boycotted.... Even Whirlpool can't get a fair shake when they are doing the right thing. Reminds me of the Whole Foods boycott because their CEO has the brains to actually come up with an alternate health care plan that doesn't match this adminstrations. Every question comes down to what our opinion is on Global Warming? I would say that regardless of their opinion on global warming the Chamber of Commerce actually does a good job for business. Well, I guess throw it all out because of their "belief".

Mis-use of Boycott

-If an organization which represents you in Washington does not share your goals, canceling membership does not rate the label of boycott.  Its more of a divorce based on "irreconcilable differences".
-I Googled the Whole Foods complaint you mentioned.  The complaint seems to be with "astronomical" deductibles before insurance kicks in.  Beyond that.....no idea.
-I believe we apologized to Whirlpool for an understandable though regrettable error, both on this site and over the telephone.
-The Chamber of Commerce has decided that there is no global warming.....like most of you.  They have reached this scientific conclusion based on what evidence?  Individuals can have any opinion they want, but the Chamber of Commerce MUST have evidence, YES, even evidence that nothing is happening, before they speak on the subject.  If there is global warming, which we believe, then one would have to assume that the Chamber is not doing a good job for business.

Global Warming

The global warming issue is a fad like the hippie movement or disco.To attempt to be cleaner if you want to be is a good thing. I am just sick of being preached to by close minded people who think they know better or have a conspiracy theory about global warming or any other issue. I am with you about ideas that come from outside of the Obama regime. Apparently those idealists can think of things but certainly can't implement things. Very much like some engineers I know and even partnered with from time to time.The only thing the government has attempted to do is put more control on normal , law abiding consumers at the banks and nothing else. Obama couldn't make a lunch for his kids and see them off to school without a long speech about it while attempting to build a consensus first.

I Have My Doubts ...

... about the fixations which some have with Global Warming to the point where it goes as overboard as past protections of extinct animals ... remember the Spotted Owl ???

 I have a place for the Spotted Owl ... it's called The Smithsonian !!! 

We need to strike a balance between correct & practical ... that is why conservation and responsible use of our natural resources need to be protected, not in the Spotted Owl knee-jerk manner, but with practical recognition of what is absolutely necessary (like fossil fuel) versus irresponsible uses ... that's the rudimentary step !!!  

Regarding the government's proclamations of the economy "Coming Back" I categorically disagree ... Unemployment is 10% and does not include people who have run out of benefits, are working part time now, are working lesser hours @ reduced or no benefits, and private business owners who are getting killed by severely reduced business !!!  

   "Coming Back" my foot !!! 

Economy

The economy will not come back under any type of government control. If any of us had billions of dollars to invest who would do it under the current president's mindset of government can fix everything but yet he , Obama cannot seem to make a decision without consensus of major proportions. As an executive in business I can tell you that with the size of his staff waiting for consensus is impossible. He will never grow a set of balls and make a decision. He is an idealist who much like some democratic ideologists can bitch and complain but have no answers except to stop doing everything they think will hurt them.Not good leadership from Obama. You would think that the terrorists would give him money for the next election.The economy is still hurting and any of us lucky enough to be employed know that.BB, you are right on. We now have a Carter type presidency where he does not know which way is up or down.To all of you young folks who thought he was the second coming, careful what you wish for.

Obama's Nobel

Stallion .... apparently the Norwegian Nobel Committee doesn't agree with you on President Obama's leadership.  Of course, I'm sure you'll find plenty of reasons to criticize their choice, but you have to admit that being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize this early in a presidency is not something you might expect from "an idealist ... that bitchs and complains but has no answers." Just thought I'd stir your pot a little... 

It's his "answers" that we should be afraid of.

President Obama is much scarier than "an idealist...that bitches and complains, but has no answers". It's his answers that bother me. First, the idealism. News articles site one of the reasons for winning is "The vision of a world free from nuclear arms". Exactly what the hell is this, a teenage hippie protest march? Seriously, from the leader of the United States? To say that this viewpoint is idealistic and immature is an understatement. To have this as your "world vision" and your approach to foreign policy is down right dangerous. North Korea and Iran have not stopped laughing yet I'm sure. His Answers - To fundamentally tranform the United States into a Euopean Socialist type of country. Cap and Trade, another blow to manufacturing in this country, raising energy prices on all Americans. Universal Healthcare, Limiting your options for healthcare. Massive government, massive spending. When the enemies of freedom such as Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, Muammar Qaddafi, Vladimir Putin praise you what do you get? A Nobel peace Prize, of course.

Mookie Great.

Mookie I have been so busy with a relocation and new job I have not been able to spend much time on the site. However ,you have echoed my sentiments exactly and the luddites will follow Obama right off the cliff thinking he is a world leader with strategies good for America....NOT. The problem with these people is they really don't see or understand the rest of most of the world's agenda.Neither does Obama , the one term wonder.

Just a couple points

I hope that Obama didn't get the Nobel for his vision for a nuclear free world, since he cribbed the idea off of Ronald Reagan, and JFK.

  • We seek the elimination one day of nuclear weapons from the face of the Earth.
    Ronald Reagan, Inaugural Address, January 21, 1985
  • Bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations. Weapons of war must be abolished before they abolish us...No longer is the quest for disarmament a sign of weakness, (nor) the destruction of arms a dream -- it is a practical matter of life or death. The risks inherent in disarmament pale in comparison to the risks inherent in an unlimited arms race.
    John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address, January 1961

I just can't take your complaint about socialism seriously, but OK, everyone gets an opinion.
As for the Gang of Four you mentioned saying wonderful things.  I don't have alot of great respect for any of them except maybe for Fidel (who can't like Fidel just a little bit?), but that said.......what exactly did they say about Obama?  I hadn't heard.

Nobel is a joke....

Ok, so why did he get it? He was president for two weeks when his name was put in. This is real proof that the Nobel prize is forever a joke. No one can feel honor anymore for recieving the prize. It is handed out as a political prize - no accomplishments needed.

The Nobel Committee Speaks

FROM NOBEL WEBSITE
Nomination for the Nobel Prizes Each year the respective Nobel Committees send individual invitations to thousands of members of academies, university professors, scientists from numerous countries, previous Nobel Laureates, members of parliamentary assemblies and others, asking them to submit candidates for the Nobel Prizes for the coming year. These nominators are chosen in such a way that as many countries and universities as possible are represented over time.
MEANING:With thousands of submissions, someone is going to nominate just about everybody.  For all we know you were nominated.

FROM WIKIANSWERS.COM
Question:  When does the nobel peace prize committee vote for the winner?
In September the Nobel Committee sends out letters requesting nominations for the following year Nobel prize.
All nominations must be submitted by February 1 of the following year.
During the months of February and March the Nobel Committee reviews the candidates and shorten the list of nominees.
Between March and August the advisory committee reviews the shortened list of candidates.
In October the Nobel Committee choose the winner of the prize by a majority vote and the decision is announced.
The Nobel Prize ceremony takes place in December

MEANING:  Actual voting is 8 - 9 months after Obama's inauguration, not 2 weeks.

FROM NOBEL WEBSITE
The Nobel Peace Prize for 2009
The Norwegian Nobel Committee has decided that the Nobel Peace Prize for 2009 is to be awarded to President Barack Obama for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples. The Committee has attached special importance to Obama's vision of and work for a world without nuclear weapons.
Obama has as President created a new climate in international politics. Multilateral diplomacy has regained a central position, with emphasis on the role that the United Nations and other international institutions can play. Dialogue and negotiations are preferred as instruments for resolving even the most difficult international conflicts. The vision of a world free from nuclear arms has powerfully stimulated disarmament and arms control negotiations. Thanks to Obama's initiative, the USA is now playing a more constructive role in meeting the great climatic challenges the world is confronting. Democracy and human rights are to be strengthened.
Only very rarely has a person to the same extent as Obama captured the world's attention and given its people hope for a better future. His diplomacy is founded in the concept that those who are to lead the world must do so on the basis of values and attitudes that are shared by the majority of the world's population.
For 108 years, the Norwegian Nobel Committee has sought to stimulate precisely that international policy and those attitudes for which Obama is now the world's leading spokesman. The Committee endorses Obama's appeal that "Now is the time for all of us to take our share of responsibility for a global response to global challenges."
Oslo, October 9, 2009
MEANING:  The committee evidently is very very impressed with his non-Bushyness, and who can blame them?

Nobel Shifted from "Accomplishments" to "Potential" ...

For anyone wanting a good laugh, catch Mike Huckabee's monologue this weekend ... he masterfully and comedically addresses the difference between the traditional Nobel Peace Prize Recipients and the recent awards which have made them a laughingstock !!!

I'll post a link as soon as they put it up on his web site ...

As Promised ... Huckabee on the Nobel ...

OK, as I promised, here is a link to Mike Huckabee's monologue ... if you don't find it funny in it's ironic truth, it's you ... not him !!!

http://www.foxnews.com/video/index.html?playerId=011008&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=10606540&referralPlaylistId=playlist 

Hmmm

I believe the average American will prefer the potential for peace over lies that took us to war. At least "potential" is not sending our American soldiers to kill and be killed over a lie...as a veteran; I still find the Iraq war as vulgar. And the lies which took us there as criminal. I agree that Obama didn’t earn a Nobel, but at least he’ll try talking before the shooting starts…

Enemy of the State

You have no idea of the threats and dangers we fight with every day.You must be preoccupied with getting your nose up higher than Obama's and neither of you can see the light. You think for one minute if he pulls all the troops and stands down on security here that the terrorists will go away ? Again being a veteran does not make one an expert. As for the shooting , it has started and will never stop until Israel is gone and there is a Mosque on every corner in America. Their's is not a passing fad.

typical

I left out a few details...I am not only a veteran. I spent 15, yes 15 years in the Middle East. I am fluent in Arabic; I know that culture better than you ever will. I understand what people say and what they mean. I also follow their news as they present it. You should try it, it might give you a fresh perspective...I've studied and reported on that part of the world for years. That still doesn't make me an expert, but a much better authority on the Middle East than you are. You have no clue what you're saying. Shooting from the hip and sounding macho for everyone to read...you should visit the holy land and talk to a few people. You’ll find that all they want is what we want...our daily bread in security and safety...Our media tends to lump all Muslims together as evil (just for the record, I am Catholic). No question, there are extremests... A few of us Catholics, Protestants, Jewish, Baptists, Budists, (shall I go on)?You’ll be surprised by how decent the people of that part of the world truly are. Be they Muslim, Jewish or Christian. Oh, and as for a mosque on every corner; I wonder why they allow a Christian to be president of an Arab nation right there in the thick of things. Without using Google, do you have any idea who that might be? As for me, I can write a book about it...So before shooting your mouth off about how much you think you know, evaluate what garbage you spew on this blog. Your audience may know more than you do...

Dram

If you spent 15 years in the middle east and are an American you would not be saying what you are saying. You have no idea what I did or was trained in. You can only puff about things that cannot be substantiated about yourself and then act as an expert. The differences go back many years and those religions /government acts as one,an autocratic theocracy if you will. They do not know how to function with separation of church and state and the well organized extremists spend their entire existence concentrating on the destruction of Israel and our way of life. You did not work for the CIA,NSA or the DIA. If you did you would shut your trap hole and understand better what is going on. Are there good people there ? of course. They do not rule and are in the minority. Very few democracies in the Muslim world outside of Turkey that exist. And if you knew why I would consider your knowledge good. Remember , the good people are in the small minority driven by fear. You don't get it. There are cells / issues here every day being dealt with while you brag about speaking Arabic and being a self proclaimed expert. You are out of your league.

look here

I am saying what I am saying because I am an American who spent 15 years in the Middle East. No puffing... I never made any comment about your "training". Judging by your comments, it sounds very "substantial"...I don't need your approval for my background. A lot of people who served by my side and continue to serve honorably until this day approve of me. That is more than I deserve and would ever ask for...No I did not work for any of the agencies you mention above, though it would have been an honor. My job was stricktly military, and I did serve next to some very honorable people  who you referred as dummies in a previous blog. I am sure they'll ignore you as I did...although they would have died for your freedom. Kinda ironic...No the answer is I am out of YOUR league. Thank God for that...Beam me up AA, the intelligent life has left the blog...p.s. you ignored your little homework...you can't even name the Arab nation (which by the way is very democratic) with a Christian president. And you know your stuff??? Get back on the turnip truck and follow Bush. His leadership was great for Americans. or maybe Limbaugh and Beck will set you straight...

Look Here Kingfish

You do need my approval !!!! I consider a country democratic that has 2 viable candidates not one and a dummy nominee. From an intellectual point of view you need some fine tuning.From a broad political view you are a babe in the woods. You can go back on the Enterprise and I will certainly not pick any more turnips.I have paid my dues for my freedom thank you very much. Limbaugh and Beck are chickenhawks.

Weekend in Review

Back from a long weekend on the beach, did I miss much?  How about I catch up on everything right here?

1) Stallion: The best skills of the CEO are not the best skills of a democratically elected political leader, though they could make great dictators. For some reason you have reached the conclusion that
  • A) all CEO’s are geniuses, and
  • B) if Obama were a genius he too would be a CEO. 

Really??!! Good grief, those are two strange conclusions based on no facts. Last CEO we had was Bush. OK, best 2 out of 3?

2)  Stallion: You have made several comments claiming that Obama is slow to make decisions. Bush (a Harvard MBA) was decisive and was entirely wrong (more or less), and managerially incompetent. We’ve had decisive stupidity. It’s nice to have a guy who thinks before he acts.
3) Stallion / Bermuda: Racism. I cannot judge your true intentions, but one could be excused for sensing racist intent in the context of the chain of messages which preceded the 3 or 4 being discussed. My first read was that your explanation for the failures of Obama are best explained by minimizing the fraction of his ancestry which is white, i.e. reducing his ancestry to 1/8th white, instead of ½ white fully explains his failure to live up to your expectations. I believe others must have felt the same. That’s not funny.
4) Bermuda: Your comment titled “Sorry you’re simply wrong”, was unfortunately, simply wrong. Judging an individual by the perceived traits of an entire race is a workable definition of racism, as it sounded like in the discussion of African-American’s use of the label “African-American”, as a defense of discussing President Obama’s racial makeup. As for the other groups you mentioned, they are fairly well hyphenated.
www.italiamerica.org
Colon Powell’s family arrived on these shores from Jamaica…….but I imagine that was a stopover from someplace other than France.
5) Stallion: Well Well Part 2: 
You said: “Iraq allowed movement of terrorists” “We should have convinced Saddam not to support the Taliban” 
Really!!!! What?!!! Why would Saddam even know how to spell Taliban? Saddam, by everything I read hated Al Qaeda…almost as much as Al Qaeda hated him. I’ve got to say, that this entire section seems fictional to me. If you’ve got something good I’d love to see it. I think the UN would love to see it too.
6) Stallion / Bermuda: The draft is a great idea, but I disagree with the idea of a pass for the college bound. If you want to avoid future stupid pointless jaunts like Iraq, it might be nice if congressmen and CEOs, and all of the other mucky mucks had a little bit of skin in the game……as it were. Everybody should be drafted into some combination of civilian and military service. I realize that the military does not want the draft, but they’ll get over it.
7) Dram: Dam Dram, you sir seem like a hot shit. My first guess was Lebanon, but there are many countries there, and Lebanon is probably too easy.
8) Stallion: In discussions of Muslims you said “Remember , the good people are in the small minority driven by fear.” 
That, is one mighty paranoid fantasy you seem to be nursing over there…….but it’s true that even paranoids have enemies…..just not that many.
When I was 18, I spent the afternoon on the banks of the Nile with an Egyptian veteran of the War in the Suez. He showed me his skull injury, he offered me his daughter to marry, we drank tea together. I may not be able to speak for all Egyptians, but for all the Egyptians I know, they are pretty good folks, (though a little free with the daughters).

Why do you so want a holy war?  You sound JUST LIKE how you have described them.............though I imagine you aren't nearly as good on the monkey bars.  Weird huh?

Advisor

Well I hope you had a good time relaxing. Since I now have responsiblities for several plants in different states I may miss some of the good discussions. To answer your Sunday funnies.
 
#1. The main thing is that Obama does not appear to have been accustomed to making hard decisions on his own. Being a leader at most any level does require some of that. I think I have some pretty good experience in that and Obama appears to need to fine tune or develop those skills.He is the leader of the most influential country in the world.
#2. Bush had three major problems,he spent money like there was no tommorow and he invaded and occupied Iraq and allowed Wall Street to go crazy and then refilled their pockets.. As for the issues with security ,my guess is he was on the right track. Let us see what Obama would do if we were attacked again.
#3. I don't care what color Obama is ,but people seem to forget he is half white. Do liberals forget that so they can use the race card ? One can only wonder.
#5. Nothing fictional and yes we should have tried to pursuade Saddam and keep him in power and keep the region stabilized whether we liked what he did or not. We did not seem to care for many years anyway.
#6. We need a draft. Some military leaders want to build the fourth branch of the government. The way you do that is with professional soldiers. We need to get away from building another Blackwater. Not good for freedom.We can still have a strong military but they need accountability back at the civilian level of government.
#8.We disagree. You are stereo typing those people.Now now.

Correct!

AA, Lebanon is the right answer (#7 in weekend in review). And as you said it was the easy and obvious one...Despite this, AS didn't know it, yet he's still willing to wage holy war. The old "kill'em all and let God sort'em out" routine. Sorry, that's not American. More like Jihadist...I am impressed with your insight on Iraq prior to the war and the relationship (or lack there of) with Al-Qaeda. The last thing Saddam needed was a religious movement in Iraq. The guy was a Baathist which makes him "godless"/agnostic. He used Islam out of desperation to stay alive for a while. There's a similar model in Syria. Any destabilization of that government and a civil war between the Majority Sunnis and the Minority Shiites funded by Iran will take place. Oh, and Iraqi Shiites will not sit that one out. They’ll cross the border to help their brethren. I love it when these bloggers think they can impose our form of democracy in a place like that...you and I can have some interesting conversations...Thanks for the "hot shit" comment. it took it as a compliment... 

Lebanon

Poor example. You need to think bigger.Holy war ? You are out of your mind. How about us being careful and deligent.We all know that Saddam did not agree with some of the terrorists OUTWARDLY !!!!  I truly believe you are not on the side of the US.

Out of your league

Sorry Stallion .... but when your horse dies it's usually a good idea to dismount. I think Dram has made his point and certainly doesn't sound like he's on the wrong side.

Cohiba

I am out of no one's league and you are wrong. You and Dram just don't know it yet. I now spend some time in the fresh air out of California, you should try it sometime. I am back Monday.

it's OK

 Stallion, most of us know more about some issues than others. But none of us know everything about all issues. So it is OK to offer opinion, but don't blast others if they disagree. Especially if they make a compelling point. With all due respect, your insight about the Middle East lacks a whole lot. You really should read up on the history and the dynamics of that region. Most of it is fascinating. Some of it tragic and yes, some segments of it are down right evil. But all of it very interesting. Why is Lebanon a poor example? What do you know about it? It may not be perfect, but it is democratic. You should witness the freedom of the press there. It will almost make you feel bad for their politicians...the satire comedies are down right cruel...I don't know if your "not on the side of the US" comment was directed at me or AA. In either case you missed the mark. Disagreement is a far cry from treason...We all love this country and want what's best for it. If avoiding a war by negotiating is the answer, then why go to war anyway. Did you ever wonder why these terrorist are so angry? No one hates other people for no reason from 10,000 miles away. Trust me; it's not our way of life, as they know nothing about it really. It is not that our women wear Bikinis on the beach. They do in Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, etc. It's not that we're Christian, as we're far away from their holy land and pose no threat. But it could be our foreign policy which in some cases forces us to choose between two or more sides based on which side better serves our best interest, causing at least one side to be upset (crude, I know, but you get the point). You can go the sleep tonight knowing that AA and Dram are good citizens...Citizens with slightly more open eyes and open minds... 

Dram

Many christians reside in Lebanon and it is small enough to have a semblance of a controlled process of freedom.The history is and AA should really respect my opinion on this. It goes back to Abraham and Sarah, the servant and the 2 children ,Ishmael and Isaac. I am a student of history. The Muslims feel that Ishmael should have been the star and they hold it against the Jews. Therefore they will not stop until the Jews are all WIPED OUT. What don't you get about that ? Terrorists angry ? Nothing....nothing we do except to capitulate will make them stop. You have no belief in that I guess. This is where some Americans are off base.Give in to them and they will love us. This is not Woodstock Dram and they are not are friends.Believe what you want but you are wrong.The comment was directed at you. "You are either with us or against us". George's litmus test.You probably mean well though.

by the way

The Christians in Lebanon are actually in the minority, yet they elected a Christian president over there...what's your explanation for that Stallion?

Luck of the Draw.

Shit happens. " Nothing is as it appears"

I guess

you got me there...

a quick question

Stallion, most Muslim and Jewish Scholars recognize the other group as "cousins" as they hail from the same place. They're all the children of Abraham. One little flaw in your theory on the destruction or the extermination of Jews is that Muslims dominated the Middle East and a good sized chunk of Europe around 1000 AD. Why didn't they do it then? They had absolute control. Probably because they truly felt a kinship with Jews. The destruction of Jews is a modern idea and was hatched after the creation of Israel. We all agree that Israel is our ally and is not going anywhere any time soon (Just to be clear)...the vast majority of Arabs actually are fully accepting of this fact. We only see reports on the extreme minority who don’t.  By the way, just as an FYI, Israeli officials are routinely interviewed on Al-Jazeera to explain their positions and have intelligent debate on the air. We don't see that here either...oh, and your "you're either with us or against us" comment was the reason our boys went to Iraq alone...it is very rigid and has proven very costly. Relax man. You’re making things worse than they are...

Dram

The first comment I have is that some of us make the mistake that the Muslim world or other parts of the world for that matter think like we do. They do not. Their principled ideas are different and when we think we know what they are saying we probably miss the boat. Did you know that Zionism is outlawed in Iraq ? Did you know that many of the Muslim leaders assisted Hitler in attempting to wipe out the Jews ? That in Iraq thousands were killed in the 1940's just for the sake of them being Jewish. Agreed that most of the current situation was hatched after the creation of Israel , so from 50,000 feet what should we do ? Eliminate Israel ? Sure then the Muslim world would not care. There is an agency that exists where a very popular term is " nothing is as it appears" You in fact may be guilty of not seeing that whole picture. Maybe you don't care about the Israeli people and don't think they are worth the fight. I am just saying.........

That was a strerch

I, in fact, have a tremendous amount of respect for Israel and her people. I am not sure what you were getting at with your last comment there...but whatever...Did you know that the Orthodox Jewish community is also anti-Zionist? There were also Arabs who protected Jews and visa versa; Jews who protected Arabs during the world wars...it should come as no surprise to you, Hitler didn't like Arabs that much either...You're stepping all over yourself trying to convince me to hate a whole race of people. I ain't buyin it. You want to hate go right ahead without the rest of us. I see the picture very clearly...You're a God loving Christian who thinks it's OK to kill Arabs. You're being extreme just like the terrorists and doing it in the closet as a Christian. I am a devout Catholic and take the thou shall not kill as a serious commandment. By the way that's an order from God! I am tired of this. You harbor some deep issues with people who differ from you. They call this racism.  I don’t want any part of it…

Dram...Dram...Dram......

You just don't get it. Concerning the Jews.There are four different types. Orthodox,Conservative,Reformists and the Hasidic Jews which are the ultra conservatives. They have differences but all of them get along at the end of the day. The Hasidic sect has a hard time believing in an Israeli state until the Messiah comes back.The Muslim community did protect and defend the Jews in the 1800's. Hitler used the Arabs to assist them with their genocide of the Jews. Anwar Saddat attempted to make peace with the Jewish community and was murdered.Turkey is now somewhat a hated state as they become more secular in running their country.Hating all Arabs ?No . Just careful about the terrorists who happen to hide behind the Muslim faith to attempt to do what you are doing. That is make it racial or religious to the people like you who walk around with their eyes in the headlights ! Devout Catholic ? A religion that has justified pedophile activities ? that is judgemental about every part of society except their own. A religion that prays to statues and saints when it is clear to pray to Jesus ? A religion with more wealth in the Vatican than most countries ? Give me a big break !!!! I am pragmatic and have no issues with people. I do have careful concerns about people who want to murder everyone who does not believe in their way of life. Which is to treat women and children like dirt while killing all infidels who don't live like they do.

you got me there...

Stallion, I don't get you...you sounds like a smart guy...you know being Catholic brings additional shame to those of us in the faith when a molester poses as a priest. They should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law! Plenty of priests do God's work with very few creature comforts. They do it out of love and devotion. And believe it or not, they don't all chase children around...generalizing about one billion Catholics makes you sound...well...Racist. Priests are just like society. There are good and bad ones. I don't know what faith you practice, but I am sure you can say the same thing about your own clergy...incidentally, the church NEVER justified pedophilia. Some did try to cover it up, but were also exposed.We pray to Jesus, but we ASK the Saints to pray for us. We don't pray to them. Read the "hail Mary". We clearly ask her to pray for us...get it right if you're going to have a discussion of this kind. You’re being vulgar and ugly...And as far as the money of the Vatican is concerned, I would challenge your faith to see if you do as much good as the Catholics do around the world...get a grip and stop with your BS.As far as the Sadat assassination is concerned, you mean, like the slaying of Rabin? There are extremists on all sides dude. We can't let them have their way.Killing those who don't believe like they do? What the hell are we doing over there? Isn’t it trying to impose our way of life on them. Afghanistan is 70% illiterate and 80% with out power. They have to walk miles to get water. You think they give a crap about what we do here? I am done with you and the likes of you...no more! You just won... 

Dram Again.

Dram. Cardinal Mahoney and other Cardinals have justified and hidden this from society for too long.This is too widespread and I do believe Rome was always aware of it and used the Cardinals as scapegoats. I grew up a Catholic and nearly went to the Seminary for priesthood. Many missions are out there and suffer and sacrifice greatly . As God has said if the catholics let you follow the bible" Good can come from bad" Catholicism is basically a top driven theology and I would bet that from my study of the bible ( I attended a Christian University) that Catholicism is a man made doctrine of laws and regulations that have no purpose to Jesus. First of all I do not need a priest as an intercessor for forgiving my sins. I go directly to Jesus for a personal relationship.We do not pray to Mary or anyone else. "The way to the Father is through Jesus Christ"not the Pope or anyone else. Do you think for one moment God appreciates the higherarchy of that or any top driven religion?What about all the man made doctrines ? What about the structure in Rome ? I personally attend a service to build my relationship with Jesus. You rely probably on tradition. God's tradition is pretty simple."Follow me" I am an American Baptist. When you say priests are like society the one difference is as the bible says"leaders need to be beyond reproach"The leadership of the catholic church failed miserably worrying about finances and wealth more than the welfare of the children affected and feel they are above the law. My time of eight years in a catholic grade school was great and we never had any problems like others. I had a great education and good discipline. The difference is I look to the bible for all my knowledge, not a priest or a top driven theology looking to control people like many religions do. You have underestimated my knowledge on these subjects and I hope that you will find comfort in Jesus through the bible. If a priest can help that is fine. Remember Jesus died on the cross ,not any priest or other human being. The other issues pale in comparison but you are off the mark because you don't read the written word enough. It is not a matter of winning and losing Dram, it is about the truth.